1:1 with a 100mm f/4 Macro-Elmar-R

[wetworx]

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I have a Leica 100mm f/4 Macro-Elmar-R (helical) on my Canon 5DmkII and i was wondering what options are available to me for getting a photo with 1:1 ratio?

 

I have an old Leicaflex Elpro, but it doesn't list this lens in the instructions.

 

Thanks.

[masjah]

OK here's what Gunter Osterloh's book Applied LEICA Technique says (if I understand it correctly). You've got the Elpro 3 and 4 lenses, the dedicated close-up ring that came with the lens (14262) or, doing essentially the same thing, the Macro Adapter R.

 

The Elpro 3 is the stronger of the two. Using the Elpro 3 alone you can get to 1:2. Using the ring or adapter alone you can get to 1:1.6. If you use both the adapter and the Elpro 3 together you can get to 1:1.2. So, as far as I can see, none of them will get you quite down to 1:1.

 

Hope this helps.

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[wetworx]

Thanks for that reply, I have the Elpro 4 (16544). But it doesn't actually specify it's use with my lens.

 

I actually just purchased the 14262 Macro Adapter...will test that when it arrives ;-)

 

It's a pity I can't get it down to 1:1.

 

Are third-party extenders possible?

[masjah]

OK the corresponding figures for the Elpro 4 given by Osterloh are:

 

With Elpro 4 alone 1:2.5

Elpro 4 and Macro Adapter together 1:1.4

 

Actually, I may be wrong, but I think 14262 is the original close-up ring rather than the later Macro Adapter R. The image ratios are I think the same though.What is different is the aperture control. With the 14262 I think you have to set the lens aperture to f/22 before it will mount. The aperture is then controlled by a separate control on the close-up ring itself. Also, according to Osterloh, you can use the 14262 close-up ring with the Leicaflexes as well as the later R camera, whereas the later Macro Adapter can not be used on the original Leicaflexes.

 

I've never heard of any third party devices. You could always try stacking extra Elpros and close-up ring together (though the quality might well fall off)! Osterloh says that Leitz (Leica) does not recommend more than one close-up ring or Macro Adapter.

 

Hope this helps.

[wetworx]

might be a typo in your book....most people online seem to refer to the macro adapter as 14262....Extention Tube / Macro Adapter - Photo.net Leica and Rangefinders Forum

 

i've seen images of it, and yes there is an aperature ring on the adapter....thanks for the tip, i don't think my adapter comes with instructions.

[masjah]

might be a typo in your book....most people online seem to refer to the macro adapter as 14262....Extention Tube / Macro Adapter - Photo.net Leica and Rangefinders Forum

 

i've seen images of it, and yes there is an aperature ring on the adapter....thanks for the tip, i don't think my adapter comes with instructions.

 

I think it's a question of the same term ("Macro Adapter") being used in a general sense, as well as its contemporary use as the latest R device. Doug Herr's post in your url link makes it clear:

 

"The extension tubes that allow full-aperture metering and auto-diaphragm (and in the latest version, ROM pass-through) are all 30mm long. The 14198 was the dedicated tube for the 60mm Macro, the 14262 was the dedicated tube for the 100mm f/4 Macro, the 14256 (a.k.a. Macro-Adapter-R) is for R bodies and most lenses (no Leicaflexes) and the 14299 (I think) is the ROM version of the 14256."

 

Doug calls the earlier devices "dedicated tube" and the later devices "Macro Adapter"

 

Whatever, very best of luck with it all!

[mmradman]

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Hello,

 

Not sure how to post this query in the most appropriate location; i have 1 question:-

 

Is bellows 16860 compatible with ROM lenses. e.g. 60f2.8 ROM.

 

Reply is much appracieted.

[Mantice]

Hello,

 

Not sure how to post this query in the most appropriate location; i have 1 question:-

 

Is bellows 16860 compatible with ROM lenses. e.g. 60f2.8 ROM.

 

Reply is much appracieted.

 

I don't see why not but you're putting the lens into unknown territory - smaller than 1:1 macro range - not sure if image will suffer or not.

[EJohnE]

I have just tried my 100 f4 Macro (body mounting, not the bellows unit) with its proper adaptor, plus the old extension tube set (14134-1 & 2 + 14135 ring) on the R8 body. That combination at the lens closest focus distance shows about 33mm horizontally in the 95% viewfinder. It may well go to 1:1.??

 

I would not use that assembly on my 5D-II, because it weighs on my kitchen scales about 900 grams (2 lbs). I doubt if any adaptor other than perhaps the Novoflex or Cameraquest, would support that weight if the camera was mounted by its tripod socket.

 

John.

[EJohnE]

Just checked with the 5D-II, Novoflex adaptor and the tubes listed above. That combination does go to 1:1 or just a speck better. Photographed a ruler. At len's closest focus the live view shows 33 mm horizontally.

[dkCambridgeshire]

The 100mm Macro Elmar in its original form as a 'bellows lens' without any focusing mount was originally designed for 1:1 magnification using the Universal Focusing Bellows 16860. The bellows has three separate magnification scales ie for the 90mm, 100mm and 135mm lenses plus a 100mm extension scale on the side.

 

The later 100mm Macro Elmar with its own focusing mount ( and which has the same optical cell as the original bellows lens) will give magnifications in excess of 1:1 with various combinations of extension tubes and bellows eg as in the setup below which shows:- Canon1Ds, Novoflex Leica R to EOS adaptor, Universal Focusing bellows R, Leitz Extensiion rings (in type order, from the bellows to the lens) : 14158-2, 14135,14134-1, 14158-2, 14135, and finally 14158-1 which has the semi-auto diaphragm coupling ... thus giving approx. 80mm additional extension to the 142mm extension on the bellows ie 222mm extension ... and finally the 100mm Macro Elmar which is racked out to full extension .

 

Looking through the viewfinder ( I used a torch to illuminate the ruler) , I could see exactly 10mm filling the viewfinder frame which equates to approx. 3.6x magnification. No photos were taken as was just a Q&D exercise to show that the lens can easily exceed 1:1 although 3:1 plus as in this example is pushing it a bit.

 

With the bellows alone at full extension and the 100mm lens also racked out to full extension, the ruler scale shows 17mm filling the frame ie 2.1x magnification.

 

With the two sets of extension tubes alone as in the second photo, 22mm of the ruler scale fills the frame ie 1.63x magnification.

 

But note the use of a copystand so the double set of tubes and lens (when not used with the bellows) are not exerting any leverage on the camera's lens mount ... as would be the case if used horizontally with eg a tripod head screwed into the camera base.

 

You should be able to use the 100mm Macro Elmar at up to 2x magnification with any suitable combination of extension tubes and bellows and obtain good photographs.

 

However, best not to make the often assumed assumption that you have to stop down to f22 for optimum depth of field as better resolution will be obtained at f11 and f16.

 

And do not assume that you need to reverse the lens for higher magnifications ... the lens is fairly symmetrical design with almost the same diameter entrance and exit pupils so nothing is to be gained by reversing it ... in fact there is less extension available with the lens when it is reversed.

 

The lens is a superb performer when used at its optimum apertures eg f8 to f11.

 

Excuse the Q&D photos taken with a compact camera and with the camera and lens set up quickly on top of my kitchen stove.

 

 

 

These photographs show the actual lens to subject working distances.

 

Using a bellows, all the 'weight' is carried by the bellows' tripod mount so there is no strain on the camera's lens mount.

 

However, with my Canon 1Ds I'm confident that the lens mount can withstand the weight of two sets of tubes plus the lens when used vertically on a copystand.

 

Accessory 'independent' brand tripod ring mounts which fit around a lens or tubes are available if you do not wish to risk overloading the camera mount.

 

 

dunk

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello wetworx,

 

I would like to offer a slight modification of dunk's perspective from his preceding post:

 

The lens w/ focussing mount alone on camera goes to 1:3.

 

If you use the Leicaflex Bellows #16860 w/ your 100mm Elmar focussed @ Infinity, bellows collapsed, you are just short of 1:2 to begin.

 

That represents a gap in focussing continuity between 1:3 & 1:2 which, if necessary to have, can be handled by the lens alone w/o bellows w/ extension tube #14256 or similar.

 

W/ your 100mm lens w/ focussing mount on the bellows you have both the 100mm of extension of the bellows & the 30mm of focus travel of the lens to add to the 1:2 you are beginning w/ which brings you well beyond the 1:1 you asked for.

 

I think you will like that bellows BTW. It is quite nice.

 

A bellows, especially one of this caliber, is exponentially easier to use and also often takes less space w/ less clutter than a series of supplementary lenses & tubes.

 

You can subtract another tube if you can live w/ the gap in focussing between 1:2 & 1:3.

 

Other advantages of the combination(s) I have suggested are:

 

Easier continuous focus 1:2 to 1.5:1

 

Ability to determine magnification and then focus w/o changing magnification.

 

This last is substantially easier than changing magnification while focussing which is the situation w/ tubes & supplementary lenses.

 

The ability to do both horizontal & vertical framing simply.

 

Tripod connection closer to, sometimes @, the center of balance.

 

There are both 1/4" & 3/8" tripod threads.

 

Don't underestimate the difference in tripod thread size. A 3/8" thread gives twice the contact surface of a 1/4" for the same length of screw. Better grip.

 

The sturdiest tripod head (large ball heads are good) w/ the sturdiest tripod makes a big difference in the resultant photo.

 

Macro photography is certainly a place where a chain is as strong as its weakest link.

 

There are still more advantages to this bellows/lens combination but this is a sufficient list to begin with.

 

Hope this has been helpful

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

BTW: Focus @ f4 and then stop down to f11 and refocus. Not difficult w/ a 2 stage bellows like this one.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again wetworx,

 

Yesterday, I forgot: Welcome to the Forum.

 

Don't let all this apparent complexity weigh you down.

 

It is actually not as difficult as it might seem.

 

Once you get started you will like it. Photography is like life: It often has the ability to work itself out if you put your mind to it & get a little help.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[wetworx]

Hello Again wetworx,

 

Yesterday, I forgot: Welcome to the Forum.

 

Don't let all this apparent complexity weigh you down.

 

It is actually not as difficult as it might seem.

 

Once you get started you will like it. Photography is like life: It often has the ability to work itself out if you put your mind to it & get a little help.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

Thank you, I didn't receive a notice on this reply. I appreciate all the comments given. People here certainly know more than I do and I want to make the best use of these remarkable cameras and lenses.

 

So I have the lens (R 100/4), the macro adapter (14262) and an Elpro 4 (16544), what ratio would this give me? and what if I get the bellows? (which sounds very attractive right now haha)

Edited January 7, 2011 by wetworx

[wetworx]

I just bought the bellows for a deal ($150) and it's in EXCELLENT condition.

 

did one test photo and hahaha I just turned my camera into a MICROSCOPE! =)...haven't tried attaching the Macro Adapter (14262) or the Elpro 4 (16544) yet...but that should be interesting...I also have a 90/2, 50/2 and 180/4 I can use it with.

 

but I'm curious, how do I work out the math concerning the reproduction ratios? it'd be good to know now that I'm delving into macro.

 

also would the macro adapter go between the bellows and the lens or the camera and the bellows?

Edited January 10, 2011 by wetworx

[wetworx]

strike that dumb macro adapter question...it goes in front of the bellows.

[dkCambridgeshire]

but I'm curious, how do I work out the math concerning the reproduction ratios? it'd be good to know now that I'm delving into macro.

 

 

 

I seldom bother calculating the reproduction ratio unless it is essential to know it ... and most times it is not essential .. unless doing something of significantly scientific nature that requires the viewer to know it. But you can experiment with a ruler and see how much of the ruler scale is visible in the 24mm x 36mm frame eg if 18mm of ruler takes up 36mm width of the frame then the reproduction ratio is 36/18 = 2x

 

dunk

Edited January 10, 2011 by dkpeterborough

[wetworx]

I seldom bother calculating the reproduction ratio unless it is essential to know it ... and most times it is not essential .. unless doing something of significantly scientific nature that requires the viewer to know it. But you can experiment with a ruler and see how much of the ruler scale is visible in the 24mm x 36mm frame eg if 18mm of ruler takes up 36mm width of the frame then the reproduction ratio is 36/18 = 2x

 

dunk

 

wouldn't distance from the subject have any influence on that?

and what about focus travel, distance from the sensor, and all those other numbers?

 

thanks for the reply!

[dkCambridgeshire]

wouldn't distance from the subject have any influence on that?

and what about focus travel, distance from the sensor, and all those other numbers?

 

thanks for the reply!

 

You'd get different magnificatons for different bellows extensions with the same lens. But once you become experienced using a bellows you should be able to match a lens and extension to the required magnification by 'intuition' . Will not take too long to become proficient ... and you will probably be thinking primarily of how the subject will look in the viewfinder rather than what the actual magnification might be. You can eg take the several pictures of the same subject at different magnifications when using a bellows ... or when using just the lens ... and you will probably move the camera and lens or bellows backwards and forwards to find the optimum composition. Sometimes you might set the magnification by using a specific bellows extension .. but that might not result in the best image and you might then wish to increase or decrease the magnification to obtain the optimum framing of the subject. I seldom bother to work out the magnification beforehand .. but I might have to calculate it or estimate it afterwards if the picture is required eg a scientific record. But everyone works differently ... some photographers might wish to set a specific magnification ... maybe if they are working with a camera without built in metering in which case they have to set the exposure manually ... or maybe if they are using manual as distinct from TTL flash ... no hard and fast rules.

 

dunk

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[wetworx]

yeah adjusting the bellows is really easy, and honestly a bit fun haha

 

but I'm the type of person who wants to know for the sake of knowing, I like to understand my tools and the art completely.