delander † Posted October 10, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) As I read some comments about the sharpness of the M9 versus the M8, I thought I would do a simple test - as you do. The two images that follow are a 100% detail of a car back light taken this morning after a bit of drizzle. A tripod was used, the 50 cron at f5.6 was used, the M9 was tested both with and without the UV/IR filter (I could not see a difference). The distance to the car was about 1.6 metres. Each shot was taken three times, refocused and the best chosen. The crop shown is the very centre of the image. The dng files were converted to tif in C1 using the default sharpness settings which seem to be the same for both cameras. The white balance was daylight and there was no EV comp, both shot on auto. I cant explain the difference in colour (the M9 shots with and without the UV/IR filter were the same and the correct profiles - M9 generic and M8 with UV/IR were used in C1). The tifs were converted to jpg using a compression setting of 11 to get under the file upload limit. The first image should be the M9. To me in terms of sharpness they look the same. Jeff Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/99707-m9-v-m8-sharpness/?do=findComment&comment=1069549'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi delander †, Take a look here M9 v M8 sharpness. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stevem7 Posted October 10, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 10, 2009 Actually your M9 shot appears sharper than the M8 and that is a surprise to me. With my M9 I am getting plenty of sharpness but not quite as much as I did with the M8. It could be lenses, RF adjustment, etc. But for me the M9 is still plenty sharp and by looking at your example here it is more than anyone could ask for. Sharpness is overrated anyway and if anyone needs anything sharper than an M8 or M9 they should be looking at MF. I am 110% happy with the M9. But you should try this test at F2 with both cameras. I find my M8 shots sharper at larger apertures (at the focus point) than the M9. When I stop down to F8 they are almost equal. At F1.4, the M8 wins for sharpness. Why? Not sure. Is it a huge difference? Nope. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest. Anyway, thanks for the post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlockwood Posted October 10, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 10, 2009 Aression setting of 11 to get under the file upload limit. The first image should be the M9. To me in terms of sharpness they look the same. Jeff Close enough. Harry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 10, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 10, 2009 As I read some comments about the sharpness of the M9 versus the M8, I thought I would do a simple test - as you do. The two images that follow are a 100% detail of a car back light taken this morning after a bit of drizzle. A tripod was used, the 50 cron at f5.6 was used, the M9 was tested both with and without the UV/IR filter (I could not see a difference). The distance to the car was about 1.6 metres. Each shot was taken three times, refocused and the best chosen. The crop shown is the very centre of the image. The dng files were converted to tif in C1 using the default sharpness settings which seem to be the same for both cameras. The white balance was daylight and there was no EV comp, both shot on auto. I cant explain the difference in colour (the M9 shots with and without the UV/IR filter were the same and the correct profiles - M9 generic and M8 with UV/IR were used in C1). The tifs were converted to jpg using a compression setting of 11 to get under the file upload limit. The first image should be the M9. To me in terms of sharpness they look the same. Jeff Your results are what I would have expected to see. I've seen no visible difference in resolution between the M8 and M9 on center. If you do more tests you might want to include a WhiBal card or something similar that you can sample during RAW conversion to get both pictures to the same white balance. That should minimize any color differences. Also be sure to zero out the noise reduction sliders so that you don't lose resolution from noise processing. BTW, many may not have the patience to do this but when I do res. testing I bracket the focus 10 steps ahead (each as small as possible) and 10 behind before choosing the one at peak res. If doing aperture sets that means exposures at all apertures at each step. Sometimes noise can be mistaken for detail and so it's possible that the slightly cleaner files from the M9 might be mistaken for being very slightly lower resolution. Our perception of "sharpness", of course, comes from a combination of resolution and contrast - when local contrast comes up then pictures look "sharper". Once we start looking at resolution off-axis then things get trickier. The M9, obviously, moves further out in the lens' image circle than the M8 and its thicker IR filter may interact differently with different lenses in the outer zones. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted October 10, 2009 But you should try this test at F2 with both cameras. I find my M8 shots sharper at larger apertures (at the focus point) than the M9. When I stop down to F8 they are almost equal. At F1.4, the M8 wins for sharpness. Why? Not sure. Is it a huge difference? Nope. Does it bother me? Not in the slightest. Anyway, thanks for the post. Hi Steve, You will probably guess that I chose f5.6 to try and minimise errors in focusing. But if the conditions re-occur I will have another go. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 10, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 10, 2009 You will probably guess that I chose f5.6 to try and minimise errors in focusing. But if the conditions re-occur I will have another go. Jeff I think your decision to use a middle aperture was good. It is the lens' performance that changes as a lens is stopped down, not the camera's. To test a camera it makes sense to simply hit the lens' "sweet spot" for resolution so that it delivers as much information as possible to the sensor. F/4 is a good choice for many lenses. By F/8 many fast small format RF lenses are starting to lose some res. to diffraction. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsonkirk Posted October 10, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) What you've proved for sure is that nobody who photographs primarily for web posting (72 ppi) has any need for an M9. Hard to be sure at this resolution, but it looks to me like the M9 is offering smoother tonal transitions that will make a significant difference in medium-sized (A3) & larger prints. Kirk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi Sean, I now realise that the M9 shot included a small portion of white wall on the right that was cropped out by the M8. I suppose that although I chose the same white balance setting this could have affected the colour? With regard to the lens yes I did choose f5.6 simply because I thought the sharpness of 50 cron is best at that aperture and to minimse focus errors. I dont think I'll be getting into the serious testing, it took me a couple of hours just to do this. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share #9 Posted October 10, 2009 What you've proved for sure is that nobody who photographs primarily for web posting (72 ppi) has any need for an M9. Hard to be sure at this resolution, but it looks to me like the M9 is offering smoother tonal transitions that will make a significant difference in medium-sized (A3) & larger prints. Kirk That's not me Kirk:), I rarely post on the web, anything I like I print - and A3+ is my current favourite size. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okram Posted October 10, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 10, 2009 BTW, how do you find the M8 (vs M9 or not..) in A3+? (I am on track to print a lot of my work at this size)...IMO, there should not be any visible diff. in resolution at this size... Thanks M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJones Posted October 10, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 10, 2009 First off, thank you for testing. Very interesting to see. I'm looking to rent a M9 and try some testing myself. I'm debating on moving from M8 to M9. But I like using an M8 with 50mm which would be similar to switching to M9 with 75mm. Here's what I'm thinking of testing for. If by chance you are able to (I understand limited time, effort and lenses available) - could you test for comparable focal lengths and then matching the M8 and M9 file sizes? I know this would throw in several variables but these are "realty" variables that anyone would be faced switching cameras and crop factors or at least the ones I'm considering. So here's the 2 tests I'm thinking: Test A I was thinking something like a 21mm on M8 and 28mm on M9 (seems to be the closest in focal length to account for crop factor). I guess using 35 on M8 and 50 on M9 is close enough too. I know that throws in another variable on using different lenses but I'd be very interested on comparing an uprezzed M8 to M9 and also a downrezzed M9 to M8. I'm guessing (hoping) the downrezzed M9 file to be significantly sharper than the M8 file. Test B Use same focal length (say a 50mm) but then adjust distance from subject to capture approximately the same image area (disregarding the changes it would have in the perspective from a different vantage point like walking closer to subject with the M9 + 50mm). Then adjust files in same way (uprezzing the M8 and downrezzing the M9) to compare. Not sure what would be the best combo of lenses though? I guess rendering characteristics are important too between lenses. Maybe someone else can comment on lens combos for testing this way. I try this with all combo of lenses: 15/16 + 21 18 + 24 21 + 28 24/25 + 25 28 + 35 35 + 50 50 + 75 75 + 90 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 10, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi Sean, I now realise that the M9 shot included a small portion of white wall on the right that was cropped out by the M8. I suppose that although I chose the same white balance setting this could have affected the colour? With regard to the lens yes I did choose f5.6 simply because I thought the sharpness of 50 cron is best at that aperture and to minimse focus errors. I dont think I'll be getting into the serious testing, it took me a couple of hours just to do this. Jeff Testing is a tedious PITA if one is thorough. If I wasn't doing this professionally I would only do that testing if I absolutely needed to (for my own use). It takes hours sometimes to do things correctly and I'd much rather be making pictures, sailing, hanging out with my family, etc. Its one of those things we do because we want an honest result that we can trust - not because it is much fun (at least not for me). <G> Yes, sampling a WhiBal or the like for WB should get the colors much closer. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi Okram, I have printed a lot of A3+ from the M8. I put them in local exhibtions and have gained an unexpected number of 'awards, commendations etc' (note my photography is fairly straightfoward). Even with cropping one can print a fine A3+ from the M8. Got the M9 yesterday so no prints yet I'm afraid, but it might allow good A2 prints. I also print from a Canon 1ds3 to A3+ size. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 10, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 10, 2009 With regard to the lens yes I did choose f5.6 simply because I thought the sharpness of 50 cron is best at that aperture and to minimse focus errors. With a lens like the 50 Summicron, peak res. will likely come in at F/2.8 - maybe F/4.0. But F/5.6 got the job done in your case. Some lenses start to lose res. to diffraction even at F/5.6 - the difference is visible but just barely. Highly corrected lenses often hit their res. peaks close to wide open (often within two stops or less of wide open). Peter Karbe and I have discussed this - some of his designs hit their res. peak at one stop or less in from wide open. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share #15 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi MJones, No way I could do this I'm afraid, But if you have not subscribed to Sean Reid's website - so much of this stuff is already there, meticulously carried out - you should. Save a lot of time and effort and I think you would be better able to make up your mind regarding the M9. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJones Posted October 10, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi MJones, No way I could do this I'm afraid, But if you have not subscribed to Sean Reid's website - so much of this stuff is already there, meticulously carried out - you should. Save a lot of time and effort and I think you would be better able to make up your mind regarding the M9. Jeff Yeah, I should have been more clear on just kidding about doing all that testing. I do plan to try out if I can find an M9 to rent but with availability would be in 2010. I do subscribe RR. In fact one of the articles shows a Canon 21mp file downrezzed to compare to a 12mp file (maybe D700, can't remember the details) which is where I got the idea of doing this sort of lens and camera comparisons between m8 and 9. I'm very pleased with my M8 and set of lenses so don't feel the urge to switch - the M9 price holds back the urge . But going back to the lens and the focal length they were designed for are my concern, especially as to how the files will change from M8 to M9 when printed. In particular I'm interested in switching from using a 50mm to a 75mm for a similar image capture. Thanks again though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 10, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 10, 2009 First off, thank you for testing. Very interesting to see. I'm looking to rent a M9 and try some testing myself. I'm debating on moving from M8 to M9. But I like using an M8 with 50mm which would be similar to switching to M9 with 75mm. Here's what I'm thinking of testing for. If by chance you are able to (I understand limited time, effort and lenses available) - could you test for comparable focal lengths and then matching the M8 and M9 file sizes? I know this would throw in several variables but these are "realty" variables that anyone would be faced switching cameras and crop factors or at least the ones I'm considering. So here's the 2 tests I'm thinking: Test A I was thinking something like a 21mm on M8 and 28mm on M9 (seems to be the closest in focal length to account for crop factor). I guess using 35 on M8 and 50 on M9 is close enough too. I know that throws in another variable on using different lenses but I'd be very interested on comparing an uprezzed M8 to M9 and also a downrezzed M9 to M8. I'm guessing (hoping) the downrezzed M9 file to be significantly sharper than the M8 file. Test B Use same focal length (say a 50mm) but then adjust distance from subject to capture approximately the same image area (disregarding the changes it would have in the perspective from a different vantage point like walking closer to subject with the M9 + 50mm). Then adjust files in same way (uprezzing the M8 and downrezzing the M9) to compare. Not sure what would be the best combo of lenses though? I guess rendering characteristics are important too between lenses. Maybe someone else can comment on lens combos for testing this way. I try this with all combo of lenses: 15/16 + 21 18 + 24 21 + 28 24/25 + 25 28 + 35 35 + 50 50 + 75 75 + 90 I understand what you're after but you might find the testing to be a nightmare because there are so many variables involved. Ultimately, what is it that you want want to know from the testing? With respect to the pictures you want to make with the M9, what aspect in all this concerns you most? Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJones Posted October 10, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 10, 2009 With respect to the pictures you want to make with the M9, what aspect in all this concerns you most? Cheers, Sean correct - kind of all the variables rolled into the switch - the camera lens combo handling, the images captured, how they render when printed, sharpness, etc. I guess it wouldn't be testing but more a "pilot study." I found some rentals for M9 just waiting on one available to use and do plan to try all these lens comparisons. So it's really just for with the set of lenses I have and how much is it worth to me to switch given the cost of M9. For example, I like the M8 with 50lux. The closest equal I would have is M9 with 75lux. But the 75lux renders differently and handling is different (bigger, slower focusing, etc). So I'd probably end up trying a 75/2.0 which means another cost exchange. I've gotten use to the crop factor of m8 and the set of lenses I have. So I'm hesitant to switch. But if I find certain areas things improving with M9 and migrating to different lenses for full frame it may be worth it to me - it's just a large expense not being more certain what I'm switching to. Though I did like going from Nikon dx to their FF so... My guess is, the M9 will just have different things about it when using the different lenses to gain the same relative vantage point I'm used to with m8. So it won't be that the M9 is "better" but just different with the same lenses. Heck, to be honest, if I had the funds I'd just have both and not try to talk myself in or out of it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devils-advocate Posted October 10, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 10, 2009 I find my M8 shots sharper at larger apertures (at the focus point) than the M9. When I stop down to F8 they are almost equal. At F1.4, the M8 wins for sharpness. Why? Not sure. Steve, you have an RF problem. It needs to be adjusted. - N. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
@bumac Posted October 10, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 10, 2009 Which color is the right color, the M9 or M8? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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