lars_bergquist Posted October 5, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) So now we have the Leica SF 58 flash that can actually cover the field of view of an 18mm lens -- meaning the Leica Super-Elmar-M. So now tell us please, Leica, how we do to put both the wonderful SF 58 AND the finder for the wonderful Super-Elmar in the single accessory shoe of the wonderful Leica M9. Even if we put the flash on one of those Rube Goldberg flash brackets (which I would not be caught dead with) or man-handle it, the question remains how we synch the flash with a finder in the camera shoe. Whatever gizmo we put in that shoe makes the use of an accessory finder impossible. Frame by guesswork? I am indeed rolling on the floor, but not with laughter. Now let me say this again, and again and again until even the tone-deaf gnomes of Solms hear it: If you think that a small five-pole screw-in 'system' connection (such as my Olympus OM cameras had two decades ago) is too futuristic, or would desecrate the Holy M, then do at least give us that shoe-to-foot cable, akin to a Nikon SC, but with a 'cold shoe' on top of the part that goes into the camera shoe, so that we can put that damn bright frame finder in it. What, pray, would that desecrate? The Leica ethos, maybe? "Ha ha ha real Leica males with hairy chests (and ears and noses) light up their subjects with cigarette lighters. Only wimps use flash." Gentlemen, I have used flash contraptions that would make you soil your pants if I let them off near you. In civilian life, and out of it. I use my M cameras to take pictures, not as fetishes or [ ... ] So I say with Gene Smith: "All the damn light that's available!" Have I made myself clear? (A postscript, to Sean Reid: Those other Metz flashes with SC adapter foots that you wrote about in your review of the SF 58, do execute 'classical' TTL flash, bounced from the exposed film, but not the M8, M9 or S2 variety that bounces a pre-flash off the first shutter curtain. And yes, Sean, using the SF24D with a Nikon SC cable to connect it to the M would be a useful thing, especially with a wrist strap to secure the flash when you change camera settings with your left hand. I know -- that is how I have used it this past year. L.B.) The old man with the singed beard from the Age of Flashpowder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Hi lars_bergquist, Take a look here 18mm flash. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sean_reid Posted October 5, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 5, 2009 So now we have the Leica SF 58 flash that can actually cover the field of view of an 18mm lens -- meaning the Leica Super-Elmar-M. So now tell us please, Leica, how we do to put both the wonderful SF 58 AND the finder for the wonderful Super-Elmar in the single accessory shoe of the wonderful Leica M9. Even if we put the flash on one of those Rube Goldberg flash brackets (which I would not be caught dead with) or man-handle it, the question remains how we synch the flash with a finder in the camera shoe. Whatever gizmo we put in that shoe makes the use of an accessory finder impossible. Frame by guesswork? I am indeed rolling on the floor, but not with laughter. Now let me say this again, and again and again until even the tone-deaf gnomes of Solms hear it: If you think that a small five-pole screw-in 'system' connection (such as my Olympus OM cameras had two decades ago) is too futuristic, or would desecrate the Holy M, then do at least give us that shoe-to-foot cable, akin to a Nikon SC, but with a 'cold shoe' on top of the part that goes into the camera shoe, so that we can put that damn bright frame finder in it. What, pray, would that desecrate? The Leica ethos, maybe? "Ha ha ha real Leica males with hairy chests (and ears and noses) light up their subjects with cigarette lighters. Only wimps use flash." Gentlemen, I have used flash contraptions that would make you soil your pants if I let them off near you. In civilian life, and out of it. I use my M cameras to take pictures, not as fetishes or [ ... ] So I say with Gene Smith: "All the damn light that's available!" Have I made myself clear? (A postscript, to Sean Reid: Those other Metz flashes with SC adapter foots that you wrote about in your review of the SF 58, do execute 'classical' TTL flash, bounced from the exposed film, but not the M8, M9 or S2 variety that bounces a pre-flash off the first shutter curtain. And yes, Sean, using the SF24D with a Nikon SC cable to connect it to the M would be a useful thing, especially with a wrist strap to secure the flash when you change camera settings with your left hand. I know -- that is how I have used it this past year. L.B.) The old man with the singed beard from the Age of Flashpowder That's a great point about the 18 mm lens (or anything wider than a 28 on the M9). I've got phone calls into Metz to clarify just how their system works with the recent Leicas. I'm getting conflicting reports so I need to hear more "from the horse's mouth". Glad the SF24 is working well for you with the SC cable. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted October 5, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 5, 2009 LOL... scary flash contraptions..? I had a 9000 ws box for car shots... oh yeah let there be light. you could actually feel the pop because of the heat in front of the bulbs... but how else do you get f16 on a car.? short of tungsten and 10sec exposures. Seriously, we need a double attachment gizmo with one hot shooe. flash in one and finder on the other. flash is pretty much straight up and the finder to the left... . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted October 6, 2009 Sean and Bo, glad that you are essentially agreeing. The present situation is nothing short of ridiculous. As regards orther Metz flashes: I have an older Metz 40 MZ-3i with a SCA 3502 foot, and while it uploads ISO and focal length to the flash, and activates the ready and OK finder signals as per Leica specs, it works only in manual and external auto with a M8. It operated in TTL with the M6TTL I originally bought it for. I understand that the situation has not changed with the newer flashes. As for near-death flash devices, I was not speaking of those measured in watt-seconds or joules, but in equivalent quantities of TNT ... The old man who survived the Age of Flash Powder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 6, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 6, 2009 As regards orther Metz flashes: I have an older Metz 40 MZ-3i with a SCA 3502 foot, and while it uploads ISO and focal length to the flash, and activates the ready and OK finder signals as per Leica specs, it works only in manual and external auto with a M8. It operated in TTL with the M6TTL I originally bought it for. I understand that the situation has not changed with the newer flashes. That's what I need to clarify from Metz. When did you start using the external cord with the SF24? That should make that flash far more versatile. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Åmund Posted October 6, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 6, 2009 Couldn't it be possible to use a CSEP4 Thumbs up if the right hand the cold shoe was made hot? But maybe that's impossible. Just thinking aloud. Regards Åmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted October 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) When did you start using the external cord with the SF24? That should make that flash far more versatile. Cheers, Sean Immediately after reading your excellent 'Working With Flash' piece. I found a used SC17 and a ditto Fujica wrist strap to screw into the tripod bushing. And I do use it for bounce, even in c. 1900 living rooms with fairly high ceilings, and it works at ISO 640 and f:5.6, though I would of course like a bit more power. I would not want to forgo the TTL feature to get it, however. The old man with the fuze and the matches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 6, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 6, 2009 Immediately after reading your excellent 'Working With Flash' piece. I found a used SC17 and a ditto Fujica wrist strap to screw into the tripod bushing. And I do use it for bounce, even in c. 1900 living rooms with fairly high ceilings, and it works at ISO 640 and f:5.6, though I would of course like a bit more power. I would not want to forgo the TTL feature to get it, however. The old man with the fuze and the matches Great, I'm glad that was useful to you. ISO 640 at F/5.6 is not bad for such a small flash. It sounds like the SF58 might be a natural next step for you if you want the extra power. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share #9 Posted October 6, 2009 Couldn't it be possible to use a CSEP4 Thumbs up if the right hand the cold shoe was made hot? But maybe that's impossible. Just thinking aloud. Regards Åmund Remember that the cold shoe for the finder would have to be offset enough to clear the flash. And it would have to be to the left (as seen from behind the camera) in order not to mask the shutter dial. So having both a finder in the cold shoe, and a SC cable in the hot one, would be a real hassle. So I do believe more in my 'SC with cold shoe' idea. It would demand no camera modification at all, and surely Metz would make it if Leica only asked them. So, get your arses our of the cart, ye gnomes! The old man from the Age of Pyrotechnics Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share #10 Posted October 6, 2009 Great, I'm glad that was useful to you. ISO 640 at F/5.6 is not bad for such a small flash. It sounds like the SF58 might be a natural next step for you if you want the extra power. Cheers, Sean The logical next step is the old Metz 40. It does still work like a charm on External Auto, it swivels every which way, and while it is nearly as big as a SF 58, it is built horizontally and not vertically, so it handles far better. And ... I paid for it years ago! The old man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 6, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 6, 2009 Remember that the cold shoe for the finder would have to be offset enough to clear the flash. And it would have to be to the left (as seen from behind the camera) in order not to mask the shutter dial. So having both a finder in the cold shoe, and a SC cable in the hot one, would be a real hassle. So I do believe more in my 'SC with cold shoe' idea. It would demand no camera modification at all, and surely Metz would make it if Leica only asked them. So, get your arses our of the cart, ye gnomes! The old man from the Age of Pyrotechnics I think the idea of a dedicated flash outlet on the camera (with full communication like the hotshoe) would make a lot of sense. Leica could then, as you were suggesting I believe, make a coiled cable that could run from that plug to the male hotshoe connectors on their flashes. The same outlet and cable could also be used with simpler flashes, if desired, that simply need a trigger connection. I hope to hear back from Metz today and then I can update that section of the SF58 review. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Åmund Posted October 6, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 6, 2009 Remember that the cold shoe for the finder would have to be offset enough to clear the flash. And it would have to be to the left (as seen from behind the camera) in order not to mask the shutter dial. So having both a finder in the cold shoe, and a SC cable in the hot one, would be a real hassle. So I do believe more in my 'SC with cold shoe' idea. It would demand no camera modification at all, and surely Metz would make it if Leica only asked them. So, get your arses our of the cart, ye gnomes! The old man from the Age of Pyrotechnics As far as I can tell from the ThumbsUp homepage the left cold shoe is offset by quite a distance and specially angled to accomodate a finder and simultaniously be able to attach equipment to the right cold (hot) shoe. Just a thought. Regards Åmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 6, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 6, 2009 The logical next step is the old Metz 40. It does still work like a charm on External Auto, it swivels every which way, and while it is nearly as big as a SF 58, it is built horizontally and not vertically, so it handles far better. And ... I paid for it years ago! The old man But you want eTTL, right? Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 6, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 6, 2009 What about something like this: Hama Hot Shoe Adapter Centre: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo Honestly, I don't understand why these things haven't been standardized a long time ago, like MIDI has helped the music industry past the age of proprietary everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 6, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 6, 2009 What about something like this: Hama Hot Shoe Adapter Centre: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo Honestly, I don't understand why these things haven't been standardized a long time ago, like MIDI has helped the music industry past the age of proprietary everything. Hi Carsten, A unit like that or a Wein Safe synch (which has other advantages for those who need to buffer the trigger voltage) is a workaround for now but there, of course, are two disadvantages: 1) There's only a basic trigger connection, no TTL, no flash ready light in the finder, etc. 2) Parallax increases Good suggestion though. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted October 6, 2009 I think the idea of a dedicated flash outlet on the camera (with full communication like the hotshoe) would make a lot of sense. Leica could then, as you were suggesting I believe, make a coiled cable that could run from that plug to the male hotshoe connectors on their flashes. The same outlet and cable could also be used with simpler flashes, if desired, that simply need a trigger connection. Sean, haul out your Nikon SC cable and take a look at it. Use it to attach a flash to the camera. Now look at the connector that goes into the camera's hot shoe. This is what precludes us from using that shoe for a finder. Now imagine that there is a 'cold shoe' ON TOP of that camera-side connector, one that could take a finder -- with a bit more parallax of course, but that would not be critical with very short lenses, which are the ones we are speaking of. Maybe I was not clear enough, but I regarded the built-in screw-in connector on the camera, and the wholly auxiliary cable-cum-finder-shoe, as two alternatives, with the first as the neater, but the second as probably the more ... hmm ... probable. If Leica had gone for the first alternative, they would of course have been bound to provide the cable to screw into the camera connector too, because there is no standard for such connectors and cables, as far as I know. The old man from the Age of Screw-Foot Flashbulbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share #17 Posted October 6, 2009 But you want eTTL, right? Cheers, Sean Yes, it was nice to have on the M40. It is on a non-swivelling small flash that it becomes mandatory, if you do not want to adjust your small-flash bounce shots the way I did before the SF24D, viz. by checking a trial shot by the histogram. Workable, but slow. The old Flashbulb Man (I can still remember the scorched-celluloid smell of used bulbs ...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share #18 Posted October 6, 2009 What about something like this: Hama Hot Shoe Adapter Centre: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo You know, Carsten, I do own one of these! But it has just a p/c connector, so it cannot do more than just trigger the flash, 1950's style. No TTL flash metering (meaning no bounce), no ISO, no focal lengths, no flash ready or ok light. All right, I did live with that during the 1950's. But it's 2009 now. And that goes for PocketWizards or Wein gizmos too, of course. Old man Flash Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 6, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 6, 2009 Sean, haul out your Nikon SC cable and take a look at it. Use it to attach a flash to the camera. Now look at the connector that goes into the camera's hot shoe. This is what precludes us from using that shoe for a finder. Now imagine that there is a 'cold shoe' ON TOP of that camera-side connector, one that could take a finder -- with a bit more parallax of course, but that would not be critical with very short lenses, which are the ones we are speaking of. Maybe I was not clear enough, but I regarded the built-in screw-in connector on the camera, and the wholly auxiliary cable-cum-finder-shoe, as two alternatives, with the first as the neater, but the second as probably the more ... hmm ... probable. If Leica had gone for the first alternative, they would of course have been bound to provide the cable to screw into the camera connector too, because there is no standard for such connectors and cables, as far as I know. The old man from the Age of Screw-Foot Flashbulbs Right, so what you're talking about is essentially a cable, like the SC cables, that ends with a male hotshoe connector that itself has a cold shoe mounted on top. Preferably it would be as low profile as possible (to minimize parallax). That might be a great idea *especially* if the connector was very low profile (to reduce parallax). I seem to remember discussing a cable design like this at some point in the past but I'm not sure if I did or, if I did, in which article. In any case, it's interesting. I guess the work-around, for now, is to simply glue a cold shoe (just the shoe itself) to the male end of a Nikon SC cable (just as some have been gluing cold shoes to the tops of D-Lux cameras). That would provide a place for the accessory finder albeit with about a 1" rise in height (resulting in additional parallax). Longer term, a flash outlet on the camera itself and a dedicated cord (like the SC-28 perhaps but sold by Leica and ending in a male flash plug) would make a lot of sense. I I'm lucky, in a sense, that I don't normally work hand-held with anything wider than a 28 mm lens (on FF). So the M9's own finder is enough for me. But many others, I'm sure, would make use of what you're proposing. I'll mention the cable idea to Leica. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 6, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 6, 2009 Sean you bring up a good point. Maybe that is one reason Leica hasn't included a flash (PC) socket on the M8 or M9. It can only be used to fire a flash but not give any control over it. Not sure why the Nikon SC 28 is so tall. I was looking at mine this morning and it does come apart, there seems to be 5 screws holding it together. Maybe taking the top part off and retro fitting a different top part with cold shoe would be feasible. I'll look into it when I get the chance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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