osera Posted November 23, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 23, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Jack- I think that this is a very well reasoned, thoughtful approach to what works for you at this time. It is useful to post this hear, because a lot of people thinking about the M8 read here and this might help them. My personal approach is somewhat different, but my needs and experience and preferences are obviously different, too. In my case, the M8 has finally convinced me to sell my 5D and the rest of my Canon lenses. Regards, Allen PS. But I wouldn't THINK of getting rid of my MP, but that's another story... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 Hi osera, Take a look here Well, I sold my M8.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 23, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 23, 2006 Hey Jack, good to see ya here, even with bad news ya old Canonphile : -) While I have the M8 in my possession, I haven't paid a dime toward it yet (my dealer agreed to hold off until Leica sorted out the issues). But, it'll soon be decision time. Here's my criteria: the camera has to produce files that are different looking than anything else I use ... It does that IMO. It's not a value judgment of file quality, for that I'll use my H2D39 which none of these 35mm sized cameras can ever hope to equal. So, it's an aesthetic decision. The question is, how much inconvenience will I put up with for that look? Well, since I paid and arm and leg for the inconvenience of scanning film with an Imacon 949 just for that "look", I guess I'll put up with a lot and pay a lot for the privilege. In addition, I use wide lenses and everything Canon makes below 50mm is sub-standard at best and horrifying at worst. I have tried the Zeiss C/Y and Leica R adapted lenses route ... but that redefines the term "inconvenience". I also don't quite agree on the size/weight issue. To me it's an "Apples to Watermelons grown next to the Atomic plant" comparison. I can place the M8 & M7, a SF-20, 4 filters, 6 lenses from 24/2.8 ASPH to 90/2AA (including the 75/1.4); a spare battery and batteries for the M& and SF20; and 10 rolls of film in a LowPro Omni Traveler. The equivalent Canon gear barely fits into a large roller bag. I've carried 2 Ms for weddings and done the same with the Canon ... my back and shoulder knows the difference after 8 straight hours of none stop wedding photography : -) What I'm inclined to do is return the camera I have, and place an order for 2 M8s that are factory ready with all the fixes ... giving me 4 IR filters : -) In other words, let someone else put up with all the inconvenience of returning the camera and waiting around with $5,000. sitting in limbo. Here's the same coverage in an "Apples to Zeppelin sized Watermelon" comparison : -) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/9899-well-i-sold-my-m8/?do=findComment&comment=101697'>More sharing options...
Guest flatfour Posted November 23, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 23, 2006 Erl. - that's also partly true but of course technically the tutor is 100% correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 23, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 23, 2006 I applaud your honestness, Jack ... and the courage it takes to post this on a Leica board. People will always have different choices, which is perfectly normal. I'll wait till the "fixed" results being evaluated by Guy, Jamie, Marc et al before my order is confirmed and reinstated ... I do think, once the initial buying frenzy is over, especially after the next PMA, the M8 will be found to be a hard sell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFB318 Posted November 23, 2006 Share #25 Posted November 23, 2006 Some folks here are comparing the sharp corners of the M8 to the soft corners of the 5D. Do they forget the 5D is a FF sensor? Perhaps the fair comparison would be with the corners of a 30D. I contend that if Canon introduced a camera with these type of deficiencies, it's customers would not be so tolerant of these shortcomings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 23, 2006 Share #26 Posted November 23, 2006 I own a 5D and I am trading for an M8. I think it is fair for me to compare my one camera to my other camera. After all, I will choose one of them (the M8). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted November 23, 2006 Author Share #27 Posted November 23, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wow guys, I did not expect such a wide range of thoughtful responses! And let me say thank to all who supported me in their responses, with a special thanks to Marc, Jamie and Chuck who know me pretty well. (Guy is probably pissed off at me now which is why he hasn't responded ) First, let's talk size: Marc (et al), I am referring to 5D bodies, not the 1 you have in that roller bag -- LOLOLOLOL! I can get 2 5D's, 28, 50, 85, extra batteries and small Canon strobe in my Domke J2 with plenty of room left over for a bottle of water, snack and tour guide -- the exact same bag I used when I shot film M's. But yes, the M8 is smaller than the 5D. Re weight, you are of course correct, but adding up per specs, the 5D bodies and lens kit weighs 2815 grams and the M8's and lenses weigh 2132 grams, or a little under a pound difference for comparable focal lengths and apertures. And to be nice I used the black M lens specs! I can live with the extra pound for the added convenience. Now let's talk AF and specifically, AF accuracy. First and foremost, Canon AF is *very* accurate, but you need to know how to set it up and use it! Multi-pattern AF is a guess at best and usually only ever selects whatever is closest in any one of the patches to lock on to -- which totally sucks for any of my types of shooting (though it does work very well with long teles and fast-action sports). However, I use single point AF. This will also lock on the closest subject in that patch, but the patch is a very tiny portion of image area and even with a 20 or 28mm lens, focus is usually dead-nuts-on. Moreover, I set the AF up to activate using the multifunction thumb button (*) so I can easily and rapidly AF on exactly what I want or prefocus if necessary -- it wont change when I press the shutter... I have used this system as long as I've owned Canon AF cameras and I probably get close to 99% accurate focus even doing indoor sports. An update on Canon glass. For the most part, the 50/1.4 and 85/1.8 have always been very good lenses. However, I have recently noticed Canon's wide glass has significantly improved -- to the point where I repurchased my 24 and 45 TSE and a 28/1.8. And all of these lenses now are quite good. Yes, the M glass is better in the corners wide open, but center performance is no different and stopped down a few stops you will not be able to tell them apart form a resolution standpoint. Bokeh on these three lenses is very good too, but admittedly, not quite in Leica M class Digital noise is better on the Canon's, probably good for an extra stop or maybe 2. But in the end the result is what counts, and I get a lot of pretty decent images out of my Canons. Stealth. Here I agree, the M works, plain and simple. If you've used one, you know what is meant so no further discussion is needed. However, and due in large part to shooting with the M, I have become more adept at connecting with street subjects and they do not seem to mind my 5D's. I make eye contact, smile and hold up my camera; they nod and I shoot -- same thing I did with the M. Maybe a slightly higher percentage shake their head, but for the most part folks nod. Noise on the new M8 and my 5D's while quite different, is about the same overall amplitude to my ears, so I don't see much difference there -- you still cannot shoot either one during a funeral service in a church We have not discussed cost, and it probably is not relevant since most of don't care what cost we endure to get a given look, but the entire Canon kit above kit costs the same as a single M8 and 24 asph -- a serious consideration for many. So in the end, the Canon, *for my uses*, simply makes more sense. And I'm not saying I wont be back! If Leica adresses the sensor issues like Chuck so eloquently worded, I will probably take another look. And Marc, now that I found out the new backs can be used on my view camera, I am seriously considering the H3D 39 as my new HQ tool -- just wish they had a shift lens for the Hassy, but the new 28 sounds interesting! Cheers to all and thank you again, Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted November 23, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 23, 2006 (Guy is probably pissed off at me now which is why he hasn't responded ) i think Guy will be busy pulling the feathers out of his turkey... :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Maio Posted November 23, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 23, 2006 What I'm inclined to do is return the camera I have, and place an order for 2 M8s that are factory ready with all the fixes ... giving me 4 IR filters : -) In other words, let someone else put up with all the inconvenience of returning the camera and waiting around with $5,000. sitting in limbo. This is basically what I've done. In the meantime, the M7 still produces some good image catches which I post here from time to time, and the 5D is the best in its class for certain available light situations. I think in another 2 - 3 months, I may very well get back into the M8 cue - - but - - suppose Canon announces a new breakthrough 1Ds replacement at PMA? Then I surely won't know what to do PS: to Jack Flesher - don't overlook the 35 f/1.4L. I just got mine last week and was very pleasantly surprised at its edge - to - edge sharpness full open. Since I got it from B&H, it isn't too long out of the factory and could indicate they finally got the word on tightening up the QC process Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted November 23, 2006 Author Share #30 Posted November 23, 2006 I think in another 2 - 3 months, I may very well get back into the M8 cue - - but - - suppose Canon announces a new breakthrough 1Ds replacement at PMA? Then I surely won't know what to do Yep, my thinking on the M8 too... And I have heard a rumor of the next Canon 1 being 22MP true color foeveon style with no bayer. If that is true it could turn digital capture on its ear. PS: to Jack Flesher - don't overlook the 35 f/1.4L. I just got mine last week and was very pleasantly surprised at its edge - to - edge sharpness full open. Since I got it from B&H, it isn't too long out of the factory and could indicate they finally got the word on tightening up the QC process Yes, it is a stunning lens -- frankly probably equal to the Leica 35 Lux Asph. And I agree that perhaps Canon did a silent QC overhaul after getting so many negative comments on their wides. Cheers, Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 23, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 23, 2006 LOL I am not pissed at you but i still am going to smack you around at Yosemite in a couple weeks . Oh and you only get a half portion of my famous steak and peppers. ROTFLMAO I'm in Flagstaff getting ready to go shoot the bird and pluck feathers. LOL Now did you tell everyone you may get a MF back. Got ya!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 23, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 23, 2006 Canon once had some teething problems facing the soaring demand of SLR lenses due to the explosion of the DSLR market so they had to go through some billion dollar expansion projects, and train many noobies on the assembly line ... 3 years later they have all turned into masters. Sigma had the same problems too ... they're basically working on shifts and still can't fill the orders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 23, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 23, 2006 Yep, my thinking on the M8 too... And I have heard a rumor of the next Canon 1 being 22MP true color foeveon style with no bayer. If that is true it could turn digital capture on its ear. Yes, it is a stunning lens -- frankly probably equal to the Leica 35 Lux Asph. And I agree that perhaps Canon did a silent QC overhaul after getting so many negative comments on their wides. Cheers, Jack Well after me jumping down there throat for 4 years i certainly hope they heard me. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted November 23, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 23, 2006 Some folks here are comparing the sharp corners of the M8 to the soft corners of the 5D. Do they forget the 5D is a FF sensor? Perhaps the fair comparison would be with the corners of a 30D. I contend that if Canon introduced a camera with these type of deficiencies, it's customers would not be so tolerant of these shortcomings Of course cropping helps avoiding the corner problem. However, camparing the well respectes Canon lenses 1.4/50 mm or 1.8/85 mm even with the 20D (cropping 1,6) gives the same results… Best Holger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted November 23, 2006 Author Share #35 Posted November 23, 2006 Oh and you only get a half portion of my famous steak and peppers. ROTFLMAO HALF PORTION? SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quick, anybody got an M8 they want to sell me? I'll pay retail plus 20%... , Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted November 23, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 23, 2006 I've never had a Canon, but I think the ergonomics on a D2x are as good as on the M8; I use the D2x all the time, interchangeably with the M8, but for different stuff. There are times when nothing works quite as well as a long zoom and autofocus...from what I've heard, the 5D and the D200 are great cameras. There may be a certain subset of Leica shooters who are embarassed to go out without the red dot, but I think it's pretty small...it'd be interesting to know how many M8 owners also shoot an SLR system, and what it is...my feeling is that for street photography, nothing is as important as the photographer's body language, and if you're happier with the 5D, that might well show up in the work...Good luck with it. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted November 23, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 23, 2006 First off, it has awesome files -- in fact the best I've ever seen in a single-capture camera apart from the IR leaking. So what were my issues? I had a few of them. Lens-mounted IR filters combined with the well above average cost of a complete system that requires that kind of patchwork fix. IMO Leica should do the right thing and fix the sensor's IR cut filter design -- having to use filters on their lenses is a joke and I find this "solution" by Leica kind of insulting. Yet to be fair, I did not notice significant problems when shooting filter-less landscapes under daylight, so I could probably let this slide if given a good reason to -- but it wasn't going to be a landscape camera and for me, the cost was over my threshold of pain for a good reason. The other issue is really a personal one -- and I know all of you long-time M users are going to scream blasphemy Simply stated, the M8 was going to be my street camera. And I have grown accustomed to Canon's excellent autofocus and superb metering -- and multi-segment evaluative metering is just a lot better than center-weighted when you are working fast. Plus I can carry two full-frame 5D bodies with a 28 on one and an 85 on another and a 50in the bag and the total weight is about the same as a pair of M8's and 3 M lenses would be. With the Canon's set up the way I like them, I just grab a body, press the AF button under my thumb focusing on what I want in focus, compose and shoot -- and get it all done in about half the time it takes me to complete that with the M. No the files are not as awesome as the M8's, but they are still very good and I get more keepers. And coupled with the flakey filter solution and cost, the Canons just make more sense for me. Hope you guys don't banish me from the kingdom.... Cheers, Jack I fully understand your decision. Especially the arguments about the filter in front of lens issue, which is a ridiculous solution for Leica and this price region :-((( Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted November 23, 2006 Share #38 Posted November 23, 2006 First off, it has awesome files -- in fact the best I've ever seen in a single-capture camera apart from the IR leaking. Jack: Since you sold the M8, can I have your 30% off lens and two filters The M lens will not fit on a 5D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted November 23, 2006 Author Share #39 Posted November 23, 2006 I've never had a Canon, but I think the ergonomics on a D2x are as good as on the M8; I use the D2x all the time, interchangeably with the M8, but for different stuff. JC I hear you -- just one more comment re using Canon and Leica together... Canon lenses mount and manually focus in the same direction as Leica while Nikon is backasswards. The fact is, I switched to Canon SLRs from Nikon SLRs all because of the Leica M! I got tired of having to pause to think about which direction screw my Nikon lenses when changing in a hurry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted November 23, 2006 Author Share #40 Posted November 23, 2006 Jack: Since you sold the M8, can I have your 30% off lens and two filters The M lens will not fit on a 5D. You're a good friend Rob, but I am planning on buying the new tri-Elmar and a Noct and then turning them around for a small profit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.