M9 – A Giant Leap in the Right Direction – Still Some Distance To Go

[rosuna]

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It is not about games. Daniel is aware of those "great benefits": precise focusing of any lens, from teles to macro lenses, and R lenses with adapter. Live view is more interesting in a rangefinder camera than in a reflex camera, due to the natural limitation of the rangefinder mechanism.

 

Live view might support an accesory electronic viewfinder (to be mounted on the flash shoe, like current optical accesory viewfinders). This EVF would be unique for all lenses, from super wides, to macro lenses or R lenses. Even the LCD screen can be used for focusing in many cases (for instance, tripod mounted, with macro lenses).

 

Those are the "great benefits".

 

It is not possible at this moment, and the M9 is a more classical design (based on the M8), but a M camera with live view (and this implies CMOS, and faster electronics) is the logical way of future development of the M series cameras.

[hoppyman]

If you look at the magnesium alloy frame on this page, you'll notice it already has very large cutouts. It seems to be structurally rigid despite those very large cutouts.

Actually I was asking if structural rigidity of the base plate would be an issue. Take a look at the locations of the battery and the SD card slot. Both adjacent to the edge.

Look at the alternate base plate design marketed by Luigi. Keep in mind that the tripod socket and also the base plate locking mechanism are dependant. Yes it may be possible to redesign the camera without a removable base plate. Not everyone agrees that is necessary or desirable though.

[hoppyman]

OK, we're getting off-track with this, but I'll try to explain it better. I shoot in color, mostly weddings. I come home with many, many photos. I use raw and auto white balance. I have to edit those photos and convert them to jpeg for my lab to print. Lightroom will show me the photos with the "as shot" white balance. If the camera has good AWB, then few of those photos will need further white balance adjustment before conversion to jpeg. If the camera has crude and erratic AWB, then I have to adjust the white balance on many more photos before they'll be suitable for printing. Therefore, whether shooting raw or jpeg, good in-camera AWB as a starting point is a timesaver. Shooting in raw means the white balance is easier to adjust as it has not been "baked" into the file as it would be with an in-camera jpeg, but a raw file still comes with an "as shot" white balance.

 

Your approach is valid for JPEGs but not Raw.

As acknowledged the camera WB setting has zero influence on the DNG except to provide a default to be read by your conversion software. Were it not so you may be compromising exposure or dynamic range with different WB settings.

You can choose AWB or the specific manual options. There are more technique options available naturally. I don't agree with your implication that AWB in the M8/9 is 'crude and erratic'

Once you have imported your DNGs into LR in this instance you can choose any default you wish on WB, just as you can customise any other processing options. It is not "stuck" on as shot as the default. On time saving it is trivial to synchronise WB and much else across hundreds of shots concurrently. Correct your reference shot as suits then apply to all similar shots selected. You may like to consider more learning on LR there. Martin Evening's Lightroom 2 book is one excellent resource.

[zlatkob]

"But of course LiveView would add into that camera a great benefit." while gesturing to the M9 in ftont of him.

 

Liveview a great benefit?! Someone puleeeeeeeze go and tell Mr. Daniel that he does not understand the Leica philosophy.

[zlatkob]

I don't agree with your implication that AWB in the M8/9 is 'crude and erratic'.

Oh goodness! I thought I was C-L-E-A-R AS DAY about this. It was the early M8 with the crude and erratic AWB, a well known issue back then. NOT THE M9. NOT THE M8 AFTER FIRMWARE UPDATES. NOT THE M8.2. Please keep this straight.

[zlatkob]

You may like to consider more learning on LR there. Martin Evening's Lightroom 2 book is one excellent resource.

 

Thanks for the tip about Martin Evening's Lightroom book. I enjoyed his Photoshop book very much. But I have a pretty good understanding of raw files and Lightroom, thank you! I process about 30,000 raw files per year in Lightroom, and all of those actually get printed.

[ryanpeck]

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If I had it my way, I'd have an M3 with FF sensor. Nothing more, nothing less. The M9 is close enough for me. I agree. Keep it simple.

 

This is the most salient point I've read in this entire thread. Very nice.

 

For me, using my Leica is a lot like driving a manual car versus an automatic. I really feel like I'm driving the car, and that is enjoyable. When I use my Leicas, I really feel connected to the act of making photos. I think it would be easier to use a fully manual camera most of the time, but not as enjoyable or as discreet. This is just my opinion, but the camera has soul and I think it comes through in the photos. Perhaps this is because there is less "camera" between you and them.

 

 

One last point on weather sealing. I wonder if they felt adding it would give people a false sense of security leading to a lot of people ending up with damaged cameras.

[ryanpeck]

One more thought:

 

I wonder if the real desire here is less a M9 that can incorporate all these extra functions, and more an adapter that would effectively allow M lenses to be used on Canon and Nikon DSLRs.

[ModernMan]

One more thought:

 

I wonder if the real desire here is less a M9 that can incorporate all these extra functions, and more an adapter that would effectively allow M lenses to be used on Canon and Nikon DSLRs.

 

No. The desire is continuing to advance the convenience and effectiveness of the M camera. No new automation of functionality was proposed, such as autofocus (although automatic sensor cleaning was subsequently mentioned and has clear merit). It was proposed to make the form factor smaller (MP size), not larger. No desire whatsoever to have functionality inherent in reflex cameras (digital or not) was expressed.

 

In any case, such adapters exist, and work reasonably for visoflex lenses, or for M lenses which have alternative visoflex focus mounts, although the lenses are not optimized for relfex cameras as they have no auto diaphram capability or other camera coupling for lens functions. Of course, such adapters are not possible for many M-lenses (certainly for focal lengths less than 65mm) including any of the current M lenses owing to the smaller distance between sensor and lens flange on the M than on SLRs.

[diogenis]

hey, let's get back to the basics for Leica M and what we can do to make it better shall we?

What about it's battery pack?

ModernMan please tell us your ideas on improvement here: for instance can we substitute this obsolete li-ion pack with something more modern like say, U235 batt packs for 10000 years of continuous operation?

[redbaron]

hey, let's get back to the basics for Leica M and what we can do to make it better shall we?

What about it's battery pack?

ModernMan please tell us your ideas on improvement here: for instance can we substitute this obsolete li-ion pack with something more modern like say, U235 batt packs for 10000 years of continuous operation?

 

Now your just being silly. Here I was thinking this was a serious thread.

 

You'd have to keep those suckers away from film and get a pair of lead-lined jocks.

[thrid]

 

]recessed buttons on back

 

Sure. Several people have complained about accidentally pushing buttons that should be recessed.

 

weather sealing

 

Should be a no-brainer, but apparently it never rains in Solms.

 

instant on – no perceptible delay until ready to shoot

 

Check

 

increased battery capacity via a grip with multiple battery capability

 

As long as it's optional. Some pros may want this and it puts extra money in Leica's pocket.

 

cf support for faster cards

 

Check

 

distance-corrected viewfinder – field of view correction in addition to the already present parallax correction.

 

Would be nice, but now that we are back to the 1 meter mask (they may make the 2 meter mask from the M8.2 an option) it's less of an issue, because were back to having framing that is reasonably accurate. This was more of an issue with the original M8. The M8.2 pretty much solved that.

 

Live view

 

Not going to happen, unless they switch to CMOS. Personally I don't need it, but since it would just be an option in the menu and could be ignored, why not? Could come in handy for shooting from an odd angle or if you needed to frame something very precisely. But this will only happen with a cmos sensor. Apparently a CCD of that size will get too hot and uses too much power.

 

i won’t be sad about you undermining my m9 investment.

 

It's not an investment. It's a camera and as a digital camera about as good an investment as an expensive PC or Mac.

[thrid]

One last point on weather sealing. I wonder if they felt adding it would give people a false sense of security leading to a lot of people ending up with damaged cameras.

 

My best guess is that we are dealing with a case of engineer logic run amok, that concludes that since the lenses aren't sealed, there is no point in sealing the body.

 

That makes sense on paper, but in practice it's totally backwards and wrong.

[pgk]

One last point on weather sealing. I wonder if they felt adding it would give people a false sense of security leading to a lot of people ending up with damaged cameras.

 

An extremely valid point! Whilst rubberised sheet gaskets are maintenance free (until they wear through and have to be replaced), those on rotating or push button shafts ('O' rings) need lubrication and/or replacement. If they get grit in they may well fail with no indication until later water ingress results. Whilst this is fine if the camera using them is designed with a short(ish) life in mind, with one designed or intended for higher longevity it means inspections/servicing will be needed periodically. I have a couple of Canon 1DS cameras which are weather sealed - given their high depreciation, I am not certain that they would be worth considering gasket replacement by now (5 years on) as the cost of a full service and replacement would I suspect, make me consider getting rid of them and using the money more effectively elsewhere.

 

On the live view points - I do use it on a 5D2 but IMHO its not my viewing system of choice and is more effective on a tripod mounted camera. I can now a monitor feed from the camera in such situations (into a 7" lcd) which should make live view more useful but.....

[bill]

One last point on weather sealing. I wonder if they felt adding it would give people a false sense of security leading to a lot of people ending up with damaged cameras.

 

Well said.

 

From past experience in the M8 forum, I am certain that there would be plenty of well-heeled but terminally dumb pouter-pigeons who would cry foul and threaten to sue having stood taking snaps of their dog with their splashproofed Mx in a tropical monsoon. They are the same people who go diving in their water resistant watches. That was my point about Category.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[yanidel]

It is not about games. Daniel is aware of those "great benefits": precise focusing of any lens, from teles to macro lenses, and R lenses with adapter. Live view is more interesting in a rangefinder camera than in a reflex camera, due to the natural limitation of the rangefinder mechanism.

 

Live view might support an accesory electronic viewfinder (to be mounted on the flash shoe, like current optical accesory viewfinders). This EVF would be unique for all lenses, from super wides, to macro lenses or R lenses. Even the LCD screen can be used for focusing in many cases (for instance, tripod mounted, with macro lenses).

 

Those are the "great benefits".

 

It is not possible at this moment, and the M9 is a more classical design (based on the M8), but a M camera with live view (and this implies CMOS, and faster electronics) is the logical way of future development of the M series cameras.

Understand your point but fully disagree.

There are two ways to focus a rangefinder : through the patch or with zone focus. It is not complicated and I feel much more effective in street photography than relying on an autofocus system and live view.

The underlying question is does Leica want to go mainstream and compete with DSLR or remain a niche player with a camera that excels in some applications (reportage, travel,...)

Sooner or later, the Canikons will find a way to fit a D3 in smaller bodies. The Micro 4/3rd are already showing the way. The real differentiation of Leica is its lenses, simplicity, rangefinder mechanism and quality. So I personnally hope they stay with that classic approach and don't add to many gimmicks to an already great camera.

If one is after tripod, macro lenses and so on, he'd probably be better off going for a Canikon than asking to "travestite" the future Leica models.

[rosuna]

Understand your point but fully disagree.

There are two ways to focus a rangefinder : through the patch or with zone focus. It is not complicated and I feel much more effective in street photography than relying on an autofocus system and live view.

The underlying question is does Leica want to go mainstream and compete with DSLR or remain a niche player with a camera that excels in some applications (reportage, travel,...)

Sooner or later, the Canikons will find a way to fit a D3 in smaller bodies. The Micro 4/3rd are already showing the way. The real differentiation of Leica is its lenses, simplicity, rangefinder mechanism and quality. So I personnally hope they stay with that classic approach and don't add to many gimmicks to an already great camera.

If one is after tripod, macro lenses and so on, he'd probably be better off going for a Canikon than asking to "travestite" the future Leica models.

 

The problem is hot to provide a simple solution to R users, and how to expand the possibilities of the M cameras for a wider audience, without compomising the classical M philosophy. I bet for optional accesories for this, just like optical viewfinders or the Visoflex were. You can use an optional EVF or not. You can buy it or not. Street photographers will not notice this possibilities if the don't want to. But there are people buying the 90mm Elmar lens, and the googles (another accesory) isn't a confortable solution. People also would be happy using a R lens for particular aplications. And many people would be happy with a accesory viewfinder for all aplications beyond the narrow range of the optical viewfinder of the camera.

 

Accesory EVF aren't good enough at this moment. Only Panasonic and Ricoh use them. But in a few years they will be much better, and a partner can do this for Leica. I am thinking on the M10, of course. It will happen.

[euston]

ModernMan, you deserve a medal for putting up with so much nonsense and still coming back smiling. You’re the voice of reason in a sea of sentiment. zlatkob, you’ve also made some cogent points. I especially enjoyed your account of how camera features come to be accepted as part of Leica’s evolving “philosophy and tradition” in the teeth of initial opposition.

 

If Leica watches this forum, I hope they pay more attention to what you two have had to say than to the derisive responses from some of the forum regulars. I suspect they will. I'm sure the company understands how much electronic complexity has to go into keeping things simple for the photographer, even if some here prefer not to.

 

While I’m here I’ll cast my vote for two features that make photography simpler for me - a sensor cleaning mechanism and in-body image stabilisation, provided that they can be turned off if not required. The technical problems will be solved and it will come, diehards, and you’ll love it when it does!

[yanidel]

The problem is hot to provide a simple solution to R users, and how to expand the possibilities of the M cameras for a wider audience, without compomising the classical M philosophy. I bet for optional accesories for this, just like optical viewfinders or the Visoflex were. You can use an optional EVF or not. You can buy it or not. Street photographers will not notice this possibilities if the don't want to. But there are people buying the 90mm Elmar lens, and the googles (another accesory) isn't a confortable solution. People also would be happy using a R lens for particular aplications. And many people would be happy with a accesory viewfinder for all aplications beyond the narrow range of the optical viewfinder of the camera.

 

Accesory EVF aren't good enough at this moment. Only Panasonic and Ricoh use them. But in a few years they will be much better, and a partner can do this for Leica. I am thinking on the M10, of course. It will happen.

Then Leica must design a specific R solution for these applications where M does not work. The M is not a do-it-all camera and I would prefer it remains as is.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pascal_meheut]

. The technical problems will be solved and it will come, diehards, and you’ll love it when it does!

 

When someone wants to provide universal healthcare in its country, opposition manages to somehow transform the debate in "socialism vs freedom".

 

When someone wants 23 changes including 10 fps, CF cards support in a smaller body and so on, some people manage to transform this in "progress vs die-hard old-fashioned M fanatics".

 

We do not know what will be possible in the future and if the M can stay compact and easy to use whilst offering stabilization, weather-sealing, a better viewfinder, liveview and so on, fine...

 

But except on the Internet, real-world engineering is about compromise and yet, building the smallest FF available prevents from adding everything one can find in the D3x plus the A900 + the Eos1DsIII...

 

BTW, is there any camera already supporting all of ModernMan demands whilst staying reasonnably compact, at a price competitive with the M9 and a equivalent resolution ?