M8 - sRGB vs Adobe RGB

[lanetomlane]

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This may seem a basic question to many of you but I would appreciate comments as to whether people use the M8 with sRGB, or Abode RGB.

I've been using Leica's for over forty years and two years ago converted to M8's and digital.

I'm a self-taught digital photographer and through reading various articles, rightly, or wrongly decide to shot everything in Adobe RGB, as I was (and still am) using Photoshop.

Reasoning was that I'd read about the Wider Colour Range using Adobe and that if Abode had developed Photoshop it seemed logical to use their profile.

However, having just updated the Firmware on my M8's I forgot to reset to Abode RGB (the default setting being sRGB) and could see no difference.

Searching the internet there seems no clear favourite and so I turn to yourselves for guidance.

Really would appreciate any comments.

______________________

Thanks and regards, Tom

 

 

 

 

Photography by Tom Lane

[danyves]

Stay in Adobe RGB on the M8, esp when shooting Raw/Dng, but also for jpeg.

 

Still time if necessary to change in Photoshop to the smaller sRGB.

[mjh]

Short answer: With DNG it doesn’t matter (raw files have no color space; this is a choice made in the raw converter, not the camera), and when storing JPEGs, sRGB is usually the better choice.

 

This has probably been discussed before; the forum’s search feature may reveal more.

[Shootist]

Those 2 settings only pertain to JPG's. If you're shooting DNG (RAW) they have no effect and are greyed out when shooting DNG Only.

All color space assignment & management for RAW/DNG files are done in the RAW converter you are using.

 

I do have one User Profile set for just JPG capture and I use sRGB with in that profile.

Usually those JPG images will be handed over to someone that may or may not know anything about color management so it is best to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

[lanetomlane]

Stay in Adobe RGB on the M8, esp when shooting Raw/Dng, but also for jpeg.

 

Still time if necessary to change in Photoshop to the smaller sRGB.

 

Many thianks for the information; I should have mentioned that I do shoot everything in DNG/RAW.

_______________________

Cheers, tom

[danyves]

Many thianks for the information; I should have mentioned that I do shoot everything in DNG/RAW.

_______________________

Cheers, tom

 

I got it wrong

 

See the other posts.

 

This said I do shot DNG+Jpeg fine and have set color space as Adobe RGB.

 

sRGB may the easiest solution for Jpeg, but you do have more latitude for color editing with Adobe RGB.

 

To sum it up, sRGB gives more pleasant results for screen display, Adobe RGB is a must for printed pcitures.

 

On Color Management you can see

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_management

 

http://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html

 

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-management1.htm

[lanetomlane]

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I got it wrong

 

See the other posts.

 

This said I do shot DNG+Jpeg fine and have set color space as Adobe RGB.

 

sRGB may the easiest solution for Jpeg, but you do have more latitude for color editing with Adobe RGB.

 

To sum it up, sRGB gives more pleasant results for screen display, Adobe RGB is a must for printed pcitures.

 

On Color Management you can see

 

Color management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Color management and color science: Introduction

 

Overview of Color Management

 

Many thanks for the additional information. I certainly found the http://www.canbridgeincolour.com/tutorials very informative for this, and other unrelated topics.

 

___________________

Thanks & best regards, Tom

[ChrisC]

.... decide to shot everything in Adobe RGB.......... I forgot to reset to Abode RGB (the default setting being sRGB) and could see no difference......]

 

Tom - Forgive me if I presume incorrectly that you may be misunderstanding a couple of things.

 

The option of Adobe 98 [A98] Colour Space applies only to the in-camera conversion that produces a Jpeg file from the camera image RAW file [DNG] information. So if you shoot RAW + Jpeg, the Jpegs colours are those contained by A98 Colour Space. However; rather than thinking that you are 'shooting in A98' , it might help you to think that you are actually shooting in the M8s own Colour Space which is larger than A98, and therefore can contain some subtler colour than A98 can.

 

When one brings the RAW files into a Raw Converter program one has the option to convert the files into any one of a wide range of different sized Colour Spaces, some can contain all of the M8s range of possible colour, some smaller Colour Spaces will 'clip' subtle colours in order to crush them into a smaller Colour Space [e.g. SRGB].

 

Some workers elect a large, or largish Colour Space because it preserves all the colour information captured by their camera, BUT the chances are you view files on a monitor that can only demonstrate colours of the SRGB Colour Space. What this means is that in the instance of viewing a large Colour Space file through the medium of a SRGB Colour Space monitor, is that you cannot see the full, subtler range of colours that the file holds. So in one sense, no matter what Colour Space one has elected for converting RAW files into; you will only see SRGB colours on a monitor whose working Colour Space is SRGB. What You See Is Not What You Have.

 

One argument for working with larger than A98 Colour Spaces is in a workflow which includes [say] a high-end inkjet printer such as the larger Epsons. Joseph Holmes for example argues that Print Drivers do a far better job of converting the colours of a large Colour Space into the smaller [currently around A98] Colour Space of the chosen printer/ink/paper combination than a Conversion done in Photoshop. So a large Colour Space file is printed by a smaller Colour Space device [the printer] whilst likely being viewed on a substantially smaller [sRGB] Colour Space monitor; this can appear confusing to those new to the black arts of colour management.

 

I hope that this helps in some way, my apologies if you are familiar with the above.

 

.................. Chris

[lanetomlane]

Tom - Forgive me if I presume incorrectly that you may be misunderstanding a couple of things.

 

The option of Adobe 98 [A98] Colour Space applies only to the in-camera conversion that produces a Jpeg file from the camera image RAW file [DNG] information. So if you shoot RAW + Jpeg, the Jpegs colours are those contained by A98 Colour Space. However; rather than thinking that you are 'shooting in A98' , it might help you to think that you are actually shooting in the M8s own Colour Space which is larger than A98, and therefore can contain some subtler colour than A98 can.

 

When one brings the RAW files into a Raw Converter program one has the option to convert the files into any one of a wide range of different sized Colour Spaces, some can contain all of the M8s range of possible colour, some smaller Colour Spaces will 'clip' subtle colours in order to crush them into a smaller Colour Space [e.g. SRGB].

 

Some workers elect a large, or largish Colour Space because it preserves all the colour information captured by their camera, BUT the chances are you view files on a monitor that can only demonstrate colours of the SRGB Colour Space. What this means is that in the instance of viewing a large Colour Space file through the medium of a SRGB Colour Space monitor, is that you cannot see the full, subtler range of colours that the file holds. So in one sense, no matter what Colour Space one has elected for converting RAW files into; you will only see SRGB colours on a monitor whose working Colour Space is SRGB. What You See Is Not What You Have.

 

One argument for working with larger than A98 Colour Spaces is in a workflow which includes [say] a high-end inkjet printer such as the larger Epsons. Joseph Holmes for example argues that Print Drivers do a far better job of converting the colours of a large Colour Space into the smaller [currently around A98] Colour Space of the chosen printer/ink/paper combination than a Conversion done in Photoshop. So a large Colour Space file is printed by a smaller Colour Space device [the printer] whilst likely being viewed on a substantially smaller [sRGB] Colour Space monitor; this can appear confusing to those new to the black arts of colour management.

 

I hope that this helps in some way, my apologies if you are familiar with the above.

 

.................. Chris

 

 

Chris

 

Many, many thanks for taking the time and trouble to provide a very clear explanation. You ARE correct in assuming that I misunderstand many things digital and especially Colour Management.

I can only now appreciate that RAW (in Leica's case DNG) is not effected in the camera by whatever setting is used, and that sRGB and Adobe RGB are only settings in the Raw Converter.

The main purpose of my photography is the production of A3, or larger prints for exhibition and therefore for that I assume I should be using Adobe RGB. (As indeed I have been doing.)

I also have a web-site which I post to when I get time and also try to post to this forum on a regular basis .... for which I assume I should be using sRGB. Please correct me if this is wrong.

Assuming I prepare a print using Adobe RGB, is it then best to convert it to sRGB before posting it on the internet?

Once again many thanks for taking the trouble to respond.

_________________

Regards, Tom

[ChrisC]

... many thanks.......The main purpose of my photography is the production of A3, or larger prints for exhibition and therefore for that I assume I should be using Adobe RGB.

 

Tom - You are welcome. There is a learning curve waiting if you care to take the ride. As I suggested in my other post; the M8 records more colours than Adobe98 can contain, these uncontainable colours are deemed Out of Gamut for A98, a fabricating process [called a Rendering Intent] is employed to try and make sense of those colours when squeezing a file into a smaller Colour Space. In theory at least; Converting M8 files into A98 is done at the expense of dumping some of the M8's potential colour capture. Some can live with that, others use a larger Colour Space which contains all the M8's colour capture range. It should be said however, that not every scene's colour will require a broad gamut Colour Space, but one's choice of Working Colour Space is made on the assumption that all the colours one wants to be contained, can be.

 

Do not assume you should be using A98 simply because it is a convenient Working Colour Space. Whilst some workers are happy using the even smaller SRGB, many opt for Converting into, and keeping in, larger Colour Spaces [as I outlined].

 

The photographer Joseph Holmes :

 

http://www.josephholmes.com/

 

is a pioneer. He writes about RGB Working Spaces :

 

http://www.josephholmes.com/propages/AboutRGBSpaces.html

 

and has designed Working Spaces [profiles] suited to digital, and film capture. Look at his landscapes too - and he is one of photography's good guys.

 

 

I also have a web-site which I post to when I get time and also try to post to this forum on a regular basis .... for which I assume I should be using sRGB.

 

You'd think so wouldn't you, [as long as it is a duplicate file you have prepared and your original file is safe in it's chosen Colour Space]. However - see below.

 

 

.... using Adobe RGB, is it then best to convert it to sRGB before posting it on the internet?....

 

Recently there was a forum thread about Web files written in SRGB [assumed by most to be correct practice] getting their colours mangled by Web Browsers. I hope someone will provide the link for you [it was probably in the Processing Forum]. At this moment I'm a little confused by whether worst practice would be better for you than best practice - absurd though it sounds. There are others on the forum far better placed to take up that discussion than me.

 

Hope this makes sense enough for you to explore further.

 

.............. Chris

[andybarton]

Most web browsers mangle colours that are NOT sRGB. Microsoft just can't get their heads around anything else, but Safari and Firefox (if you do a bit of command-line jiggery-pokery) are colour managed.

 

sRGB is the only safe way to display images on the internet if you want people that use Internet Explorer to be able to have a fighting chance of seeing roughly what you see.

[ho_co]

...Recently there was a forum thread about Web files written in SRGB [assumed by most to be correct practice] getting their colours mangled by Web Browsers. ...

Chris, I didn't see the thread and would like to know more. As I understand it, the important thing is that one not include the sRGB profile when writing an sRGB file to web.

 

Some browsers are color-profile aware, as Andy said. But those that aren't profile-aware can get confused when a file contains a color profile.

 

So--if my understanding is correct, and I'm not sure it is--when sending to the web, format as sRGB but do not include the sRGB profile.

[lanetomlane]

Many thanks to all of you who responded, I've certainly learned a lot from your experience. And a special "Thank You" to ChrisC who really took the trouble to clarify everything for me by way of his superb explanations.

________________

Regards to all, Tom

[ChrisC]

.... As I understand it, the important thing is that one not include the sRGB profile when writing an sRGB file to web.

 

Some browsers are color-profile aware, as Andy said. But those that aren't profile-aware can get confused when a file contains a color profile.

 

So--if my understanding is correct, and I'm not sure it is--when sending to the web, format as sRGB but do not include the sRGB profile.

 

Howard, hi,

 

I'm rather rushed for time but will look in to this thread again.

 

The thread I thought I remembered might be this one :

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-post-processing-forum/93369-browsers-posting-photos-differences.html

 

which Andy contributed to, but which surprisingly petered out. There may well have been another thread of similar vintage which covered similar territory, or perhaps I have jumbled disinformation and bad memory to achieve my own uncertainty [which previously had been that Converting a file into SRGB prior to posting was best practice].

 

When you say :

 

format as sRGB but do not include the sRGB profile.

 

I admit to being thick and do not know what you mean, it is the use of the term format which confuses me [easily done in truth]. I understand Assign, and Convert, but not in this instance; Format. I'd appreciate your help.

 

Back to the thread I linked, there was one particular post which etched my uncertainty :

 

No no, what I mean is that it ruins the picture when you attach the profile.

The same image in sRGB looks different in the browser with or without the profile attached.

__________________

Henrik Ammitsboel

 

I no longer have Andy's certainty about SRGB web files - I wouldn't mind having it back though! If some of the Colour Management bunnies would stop their salivating over at the M9 house and join in, I'm sure we would make faster progress, [and maybe merge the M8/M9 forums Andy?]

 

..................... Chris

[Rick]

Also, keep in mind that when using LightRoom2, the native color space is ProPhotoRGB. ProPhotoRGB has a wider gamut than either sRGB or AdobeRGB. ProPhotoRGB will encompass more of the colors that the sensor is capable of capturing. So, you are throwing away less data. I stick to ProPhotoRGB color space from my raw conversion right on through my work flow.

 

The caveat, is that my display can't show me those colors and my printer can't necessarily print all of them. Also, you should work in 16bit mode for best results. Also, you need to make sure you set PS's workspace to ProPhotoRGB and not let it convert it to AdobeRGB.

[sandymc]

Where the whole Web browser/ sRGB thing is now is as follows:

 

1. Safari will by default correctly display tagged images; however, it will assign the monitor profile to any untagged image, so untagged sRGB images are unlikely to display correctly

 

2. Versions of Firefox between 3.0 and 3.4 will correctly display tagged images if color management is manually enabled by setting some configuration switches; it will then also assume an untagged image is sRGB, so should display an untagged sRGB image correctly

 

3. As of version 3.5 Firefox will by default display tagged images correctly, but will display an untagged image in the monitor profile unless you manually tell it to assume sRGB

 

3. IE is just useless, and will generally just display in the monitor profile. Your best hope is that the monitor profile is somewhat close to sRGB

 

So, best strategy for the web, in my opinion anyway, is tagged sRGB images.

 

Sandy

[ho_co]

Chris--Thanks. I'll try to clarify.

 

What I wanted to say (hopefully) is that when one uploads a file to the web, it should in general be in sRGB without embedded profile.

 

Whether the file was shot in sRGB or Adobe RGB or any other color space, it should be uploaded as sRGB. Whether one does that via "Assign Profile..." or "Convert to Profile..." or whether one is already working in sRGB depends on the situation and isn't relevant to what I was trying to say. I probably shouldn't have said to "format" the file as sRGB; the important thing is that the file be in sRGB (again, generally speaking) when it is sent to the web.

 

You and others had already mentioned the general need to use sRGB for the web.

 

The only point I wanted to add is one that I was just made aware of by Jack Davis at one of the Kelby Training Photoshop Seminars: The profile should not be embedded when the file is uploaded. That is, in the Save as... dialog box, uncheck the "Embed Color Profile" box (shown checked below).

 

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[ho_co]

Sandy's post #16 came in while I was preparing my post #17, so I need to clarify:

 

My opinion is strictly hearsay after Jack Davis, whose level of competence I don't know. Davis' viewpoint seems to be the same as that of Henrik Ammitsboel (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-post-processing-forum/93369-browsers-posting-photos-differences.html#post983672), cited by Chris above in his post #14.

 

Sandy's understanding is deeper than mine and his position the opposite of Jack's/Henrik's/mine.

 

Sandy's suggestion is likely better than mine.

 

 

But intellectually, I'm curious as to where Davis's understanding arose. He gave the feeling that this "don't embed the profile" was something just recently discovered. If anyone has insight on this, I would like to hear it.

[Albert4321]

I shoot in RAW and process my files into sRGB simply because it works for web, my lab and my album company. A RGB would be better for print but not enough benefit in real world practic "for me".

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[Shootist]

Now I am totally confused:confused::confused:

 

I guess I'll just keep doing what I've always done for posting to the net. The images on my photo site look fine.