No ability to save RAW files only?

[davephoto]

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I was reading the description of the X1 from various sources and it appears that the X1 doesn't allow the camera save images in RAW only.

 

From the description in the X1 technical data brochure it says:

"Image Quality JPEG super fine, JPEG fine, DNG+JPEG super fine, DNG+JPEG fine."

 

From Leica Camera AG - Photography - X1 it states, "Whenever you want, the X1 transforms image data into JPEG files for immediate use as quick as a flash. At the same time, photographers may also choose to store image files in the Adobe Digital Negative Format (DNG)...".

 

I increasingly find myself shooting RAW files and in those situations, I don't need a duplicate JPEG. To be forced to select both would result with an additional unused file for each image which I need to delete. With my current digital workflow, I either choose RAW or JPEG, but never both.

 

Strange.

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[Paul Hart]

I also noticed that, and if it's true it's a pity because, like you, I tend to shoot in RAW only. Hopefully there's a way round it.

[Guest]

Once a week this could be broght again towards the top of the list untill December

[murfman]

The DNG spec allows for and recommends a JPEG preview. This allows a program like an asset manger to quickly show a new image or show the last chain of edits without having to process the raw data. Adobe's sdk does not provide tools to make large previews just a little thumbnail. The camera would have to run the Adobe DNG Converter software itself. So its better to just generate the JPEG in camera, and tuck it the DNG.

[integrale]

The DNG spec allows for and recommends a JPEG preview. This allows a program like an asset manger to quickly show a new image or show the last chain of edits without having to process the raw data. Adobe's sdk does not provide tools to make large previews just a little thumbnail. The camera would have to run the Adobe DNG Converter software itself. So its better to just generate the JPEG in camera, and tuck it the DNG.

 

I'm not sure this is absolutely correct; I shoot RAW exclusively with D-Lux 4 and Nikon D300; both cameras and Photoshop Elements 7 show preview in full resolution.

[murfman]

If by RAW you mean the .NEF or .RWL files straight from the camera, then Elements is using Adobe Camera Raw to render them at full resolution to the screen, not the DNG converter. Proprietary RAW formats are read by camera specific filters in ACR to render sensor data into a visible image. From there you can save in DNG format, and save your edits to the pic in the DNG metadata. This approach works fine but has some drawbacks. One drawback is the reason DNG exists, proprietary metadata in the RAW file that cannot be read by all RAW converters. Info such as corrections for barrel distortion and color fringing, that the camera applies to its JPEG files.

 

This why for instance many see (myself included), a "better" rendering of .NEF files in NX2 Nikons' own software. To build filters for RAW conversion in ACR, DXO Optics, Silkypix etc, adds to the engineering overhead -cost- to the 3rd party developers. Fortunately, Adobe has good resources, and buries the development cost of ACR into PhotoShop, a very expensive program compared to Elements. For other developers, the number of cameras they can support will lag or be nonexistent.

 

Even with resources, there is proprietary data in RAW formats that cannot be read at all. So you don't always get the "as shot" information, RAW is just that, data off the sensor, with no camera settings info, or corrections. Your default ACR setting might have nothing to do with your as shot info, its why some new to RAW think that their pictures are flat and dull. You make your corrections to the RAW, which are just metadata "formulas" to control how to render RAW to JPEG TIFF, etc. Without DNG these formulas are lost, with it, your edits, WB tone sharpening.. are saved into the sidecar file, for any other DNG supporting program to read. Along with the metadata, a JPEG preview can be embedded as well, showing your edits pictorially.

 

So if the camera performs all the JPEG rendering and save right into DNG, (not that Leica is doing all this don't know for sure) all info for "as shot" is readily available to all vendors of RAW converters and more importantly to workflow RAW programs like LightRoom and Aperture. If you shoot 200+ shots of a school event say, and want to pick 60 to put on a web site, the program does not have to render all those previews during the select process, You can just use the JPEG, send it to the web site for first looks.

 

 

So at some point in many workflows the JPEG gets rendered, its an elegant solution to create it at capture time and show the as shot view.

[integrale]

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I'm with you on all of this, I just wished to point out that your point in respect of the need for saving a jpeg file with the NEF/RWL file in camera was based on the (incorrect) assumption that a special software was needed to preview the NEF/RWL file in more than pixelated thumbnails.

 

You don't so there isn't (a need for saving a jpeg in camera).

[murfman]

Not an assumption, I did say that a file is read in by ACR can be rendered at full resolution. You can print right then, edit and print, or then save to jpg for email web, etc. with no preview needed. But that is only one workflow and one need. When dealing with other software, or large amounts of images losing the time/processing overhead of high res preview is a good trade of against the storage taken by the JPEG, which in more cases than not, is needed. The last outing with my D40, came back with almost 500 images, would be nice to have had the JPEGs rendered. Not a huge hit for sure, but storage can be purchased but not more time!

[ljclark]

I think the concern with most folks is the write time with DNG+JPEG. Maybe this is a camera-specific issue, but my M8 takes much longer to complete the shooting-writing process when I shoot DNG+JPEG as compared to DNG alone. I stopped shooting combined files and now just shoot DNG -- the M8 files seem to require so little PP that it's essentially a no-brainer. I still get an in-camera preview that is good enough for the field.

 

On the other hand, the target audience for the X1 likely includes a much larger percentage of people who will just want to print or post JPEGs and not "mess around" with DNG.

 

It will be interesting to see what the "reset to defaults" state of the X1 is. I'd almost bet that it will be "JPEG" for the file storage selection.

 

For all my grousing about people who want to tart up the X1 with impossible (or just plain uninformed) characteristics, this is one area that Leica should correct by offering a DNG-only choice.

[murfman]

Ah! Good point, our thinking is colored by our own experiences, when shooting with the Leicas that I have (IIIc - Minilux) I tend to think of them as my slow cameras, especially the IIIc. I take the IIIc when I want to be contemplative, and considered, lining up a shot. The Minilux goes to parties, or is the tag along camera, for quicker, spontaneous reaction. Even though the "write time" of a film camera is very fast, I don't tend to fire shots in quick succession. When I think I need that, the dSLR comes with me. So I guess I'm one that sees the X1 as the heir to the Minilux/CM spot in the line up; a responsive, controllable camera for when I'm in the mood to "do photography" and don't have the need to be in a "record it all and sort it out in post" situation. I was thinking the way I might use the dSLR, and when JPEG and RAW can help.