The romance is dissipating

[odyocu]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Cool. Exactly what I wanted.

 

Hope the rumours are correct and I can get it quickly. I'll wait for about 1 month until the dust settles though..

 

Imagine being able to use the 21/2.8 as 21mm.. or the 28/2 for what it was designed for.

Try the 12mm Voigtlander to see what happens.. I can't wait for the announcement..

 

Seyhun

 

 

Now that an M9 seems possible, ..... -- full frame, probably, and it may not require filters. ....

It appears that we are essentially going to get a FF M8, perhaps with a bit better ISO range and a critical flaw (IR vulnerability) corrected -- and that's the end of the story.

JC

[offshore]

Now that an M9 seems possible, it also seems like we're going to get a fairly mundane machine -- full frame, probably, and it may not require filters. But that seems like a threadbare minimum compared to what some were hoping for over the past few years. If the rumors are correct, there will be no Live View, no innovative frame lines, no focus confirm or in-body IS, no pivoting screen on the back, no additional weather sealing, or Leica-specific post-processing software to optimize image quality -- nothing that might attract the attention of a new generation of users.

 

It appears that we are essentially going to get a FF M8, perhaps with a bit better ISO range and a critical flaw (IR vulnerability) corrected -- and that's the end of the story. I personally was hoping for more, but it doesn't feel like it's coming...I'm now more intrigued by rumors of a second body than I am by the M9.

 

JC

Don't assume IR vulnerability is a critical flaw to everyone, some of us have used it as an advantage making the M8 one of the more versatile cameras on the market.

[pleeson]

African children? Indian children? Asian children?... or just spoiled American and European children?

 

Obviously, the children of owners of new Leicas!

[KM-25]

How odd, I guess there is always one or two in the bunch...kind of like complaining an M7 can't do 8 frames a second or have frame lines for a fisheye.

 

It's mind boggling what has happened to photography in the past 5 years, far less care about making brilliant imagery and just care about technology and that is it.....and boy does it show in their photos too.

[pleeson]

How odd, I guess there is always one or two in the bunch...kind of like complaining an M7 can't do 8 frames a second or have frame lines for a fisheye.

 

It's mind boggling what has happened to photography in the past 5 years, far less care about making brilliant imagery and just care about technology and that is it.....and boy does it show in their photos too.

 

Agreed, lots of people with Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

Not to mention the post-processing that blurs the line between photography and graphic design.

[stunsworth]

I find this is a depressing thread. A full frame 18mp Leica M being described as mundane. Sorry, I find it anything but and can't wait for the 9th

[KM-25]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Not to mention the post-processing that blurs the line between photography and graphic design.

 

That is actually my biggest concern for the future of photography.

 

There is such a thing as the art of life well recognized and framed in an un-altered photo. A lot of the best imagery from photojournalists have sold as art, so they were not just made as bland images of record, but visually organized testaments to the brilliance of the lives we live. And even though photo reportage is suffering in the onslaught of mediocrity, there are still awards given to those who best embrace "The Decisive Moment".

 

Disturbingly though, this notion seems to take a back seat to those who claim that their trite photoshop derived "art" is significant too, when it is not. For it leaves nothing behind of value, nothing that remotely resembles the evidence of the genius of nature or the real brilliance of lives well lived, triumph, tragedy or substance.

 

But.....I know there are people out there who care about what photography used to be, what the intrepid and curious nature of mankind with camera in hand can yield. So that is the audience I appease to, those who still care.

 

And that is who Leica makes the M for, those who care about the photograph that reveals the brilliant chance to live as a human being with an eye for the gifts we are given, not the constant banter of how you get there.

[wattsy]

That is actually my biggest concern for the future of photography.

And that is who Leica makes the M for, those who care about the photograph that reveals the brilliant chance to live as a human being with an eye for the gifts we are given

 

LOL. You'll be asking us to go to church next..

[hookonclassic]

Just perfect! If everything is as it seems, the M9 could be a life partner. The romance just begin. 18 mpx, FF, good high iso, no filters, nice shutter, keeping it as a M camera. What else can I wish? The dream come true! I can't sleep... I love my M8 and It's been a pleasure to work with it. The M9 seems to improve in the M8 making my perfect camera.

 

Fully agreed. What more perfect than my passion for the digital M one can get. Keep it simple with good digital image is all I love about the "M"...........M9 is the one!

[giordano]

That is actually my biggest concern for the future of photography.

 

There is such a thing as the art of life well recognized and framed in an un-altered photo. A lot of the best imagery from photojournalists have sold as art, so they were not just made as bland images of record, but visually organized testaments to the brilliance of the lives we live. And even though photo reportage is suffering in the onslaught of mediocrity, there are still awards given to those who best embrace "The Decisive Moment".

 

Disturbingly though, this notion seems to take a back seat to those who claim that their trite photoshop derived "art" is significant too, when it is not. For it leaves nothing behind of value, nothing that remotely resembles the evidence of the genius of nature or the real brilliance of lives well lived, triumph, tragedy or substance.

 

But.....I know there are people out there who care about what photography used to be, what the intrepid and curious nature of mankind with camera in hand can yield. So that is the audience I appease to, those who still care.

 

And that is who Leica makes the M for, those who care about the photograph that reveals the brilliant chance to live as a human being with an eye for the gifts we are given, not the constant banter of how you get there.

 

Complaining about Photoshop art is a lost cause: for the last hundred years or so, art has been a zone where "anything goes" - and people have been manipulating photographs for even longer than that.

 

More worrying IMHO is that we're on the way to losing the distinction between "straight" and manipulated images. On the one hand, routine and automated manipulation in post: slimming, bikini lines, you name it. On the other, computational photography: soon - if not already - there'll be a P&S that when pointed at a group of people captures images at 25fps for a second or so - and then combines them so that in the final picture everyone is smiling and has their eyes open. Or images that have more - or less - DOF than a real lens could provide. And so on.

 

This has obvious implications for what we can believe of what we see - but it also seems to make it impossible to distinguish (except by the photographer's attestation) between honest art photography and the manipulated kind.

[FastFashnReloaded]

It appears that we are essentially going to get a FF M8, perhaps with a bit better ISO range and a critical flaw (IR vulnerability) corrected -- and that's the end of the story. I personally was hoping for more, but it doesn't feel like it's coming...I'm now more intrigued by rumors of a second body than I am by the M9.

 

JC

 

Sigh... It's a RANGEFINDER. If I want live view or video or AF I pull out my E-520 or LX3. An FF M digital is what we've been asking for for three years! Right? We wanted better reliability, FF, better high ISO performance, better white balance but I don't remember anyone saying anything about stuff you can buy on a plastic canikon.

 

There are different tools for different jobs, why is this so difficult to understand? Would you take a road bike on a singletrack trail??? Would you take a 911 on the Appalachian Trail? Could a space shuttle make it to the Moon?

 

I really, really believe that pollution or something is lowering IQ. JC, go watch Glenn Beck and melt into your couch, hmmm?

 

Hoping for more... What a crock.

[ryanpeck]

Now that an M9 seems possible, it also seems like we're going to get a fairly mundane machine -- full frame, probably, and it may not require filters. But that seems like a threadbare minimum compared to what some were hoping for over the past few years. If the rumors are correct, there will be no Live View, no innovative frame lines, no focus confirm or in-body IS, no pivoting screen on the back, no additional weather sealing, or Leica-specific post-processing software to optimize image quality -- nothing that might attract the attention of a new generation of users.

 

It appears that we are essentially going to get a FF M8, perhaps with a bit better ISO range and a critical flaw (IR vulnerability) corrected -- and that's the end of the story. I personally was hoping for more, but it doesn't feel like it's coming...I'm now more intrigued by rumors of a second body than I am by the M9.

 

JC

 

 

Makes me wonder how guys like Capa and Cartier-Bresson and Winogrand managed to take any good pictures at all, what without the Live View and pivoting screen and focus confirm.

 

If they've done it, a FF digital Leica M is an amazing accomplishment, one that allows us to use the greatest lenses ever in much the same as we always have in the film world. I, for one, can't really see myself ever desiring more in a camera. The M8 was close, even with the IR issue, but this will be terrific.

[adan]

"If the rumors are correct, there will be no Live View, no innovative frame lines, no focus confirm or in-body IS, no pivoting screen on the back......"

 

Precisely what I am willing to pay more for....less.

 

"nothing that might attract the attention of a new generation of users."

 

The last three people (within the past month) whose attention was attracted by my M8 were A) all under 30, not wealthy (a waiter, a guy handing out free samples of a Sports drink, a tech-school student), and C) completely uninterested in "features" - only concerned about the steep price.

 

"no additional weather sealing.....

 

remains to be seen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...

 

or Leica-specific post-processing software to optimize image quality -- "

 

I'm getting great image quality out of a 4-year-old version of CS2. Skill is a wonderful substitute for software - and free

[FastFashnReloaded]

"I'm getting great image quality out of a 4-year-old version of CS2. Skill is a wonderful substitute for software - and free[/b]

 

Exactly... And CS2 isn't exactly limiting if all you want to do is adjust curves and crop a bit. Besides, when I upgrade CS2 I have to buy a new Mac (because they went to Intel), get new displays, and then of course I'll be getting a camera with more MP...

 

Good shots are free. Processing power is expensive.

 

If you can't get good shots with almost any of the digicams made in the past two or three years then it isn't because of a lack of MP or IQ or whatever the metric of the moment is. You can't get good pix because YOU suck.

[thrid]

j

Since we're not seeing M8s keel over due to moisture, I still don't see the need for yet better sealing. LiveView? I can't imagine why one would want it on a rangefinder. Same with the added bulk of a pivoting display, which would only be of use with LiveView anyway.

 

I wouldn't mind sealing, but can live without the pivoting display. I don't think live view is possible as long as they are using a CCD. From what I have read, they get too hot. CMOS runs cooler.

 

As for snazzy alterations to the frame lines, that would require changing the camera's shape and feel drastically, as well as demanding a much higher price.

 

Interestingly the mechanical RF unit is probably the most complex piece in the M body. It's also the most time consuming to construct. Electronically projected framelines would probably be cheaper to build and take up as much or less space, so the camera size and shape would remain as is. If done correctly they would have pretty much the same appearance as the current analog markings.

 

Arri uses a digital mask in the optical viewfinder of their movie cameras. It's looks great and can even be illuminated for shooting in the dark. They call it Arri-Glow.

[thrid]

I find this is a depressing thread. A full frame 18mp Leica M being described as mundane. Sorry, I find it anything but and can't wait for the 9th

 

I agree. How many years have we been waiting for this?

 

We're getting full frame and no IR filters. Try to imagine how sharp this thing is going to be. We're looking at an 18MP CCD with no AA filter and modern Leica glass. Also all new electronics that will be more reliable and faster. People should be dancing in the street.

 

On the 9th I hope to be pleasantly surprised and see:

 

1) A frameline mask that is as accurate as what's in the M4 or MP3.

2) Splash proof body

 

The only way this could be better is if we got a 20MP sensor that has a pixel binning mode.

In that mode the sensor would drop to 10MP, but in return give you 10-12 stops of useable dynamic range.

 

It could also be cheaper, but it seems that Leica is only going to smack us with the velvet glove and leave the price roughly where it is now. Not good, but it could be worse.

[adan]

Sadly, pixel-binning drops the total resolution by 4x - an rgbg pixel quartet becomes "one" final image pixel. A 20 Mpixel camera "binned" would come out 5 Mpixels. Linear resolution does drop by half.

 

i.e. a 4000 x 5000 image "bins" to 2000 x 2500.

 

I do like the concept as a way of getting both Kodachrome 64 and Tmax3200 performance out of a single sensor, but I'd prefer to start with 30+ Mpixels as the base resolution (7-8 Mpixels binned)

 

Clarification: Fuji uses an oddball rgbg non-Bayer pattern that allows two-pixel binning with their EXR sensor: http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PKNA08/1222727986.html so they can bin to half-resolution instead of a quarter.

 

But on the PhaseOne/Dalsa Sensor+ P65+, the base resolution of 60 Mpixels drops to 15 when binned: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sensor-plus.shtml - the old 4:1 ratio

[redbaron]

An M is an M. It's not a goat, nor a phone, nor a toaster. If you want one these then buy one, but an M is an M. Always has been, always will be. Have a read of any of Leica's advertising since the M3 for some clues about what the M9 will have and more importantly why.

[SJP]

Sadly, pixel-binning drops the total resolution by 4x - an rgbg pixel quartet becomes "one" final image pixel. A 20 Mpixel camera "binned" would come out 5 Mpixels. Linear resolution does drop by half.

 

i.e. a 4000 x 5000 image "bins" to 2000 x 2500.

 

I do like the concept as a way of getting both Kodachrome 64 and Tmax3200 performance out of a single sensor, but I'd prefer to start with 30+ Mpixels as the base resolution (7-8 Mpixels binned)

 

Clarification: Fuji uses an oddball rgbg non-Bayer pattern that allows two-pixel binning with their EXR sensor: NEWS! - Fujifilm announces Super CCD EXR sensor so they can bin to half-resolution instead of a quarter.

 

But on the PhaseOne/Dalsa Sensor+ P65+, the base resolution of 60 Mpixels drops to 15 when binned: Sensor Plus Review - the old 4:1 ratio

Mmm, interesting does that mean that you could pixel bin a M8 to about 2500 megapixels?

If the surface area increases by a factor 4 I guess you get close to 2 stops extra noise handling? That would be an interesting option actually for the M8. Not as a standard but for shooting in very dark situations a usable 2500 -5000 ISO would be nice, even if you lose some resolution.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[johnbuckley]

Thank you, Steve Unsworth. Thank you, Andy Piper. Both of you get it. People who complain -- in advance of seeing the M9, no less -- that it won't have certain features might be better off with another camera system. I'm not smart enough or a good enough technician to use a top-line Canon or Nikon -- it was the retrograde simplicity of the M that drove me from SLRs to a M to begin with. Now that we have the prospect of a full-frame digital M with 18 megapixels, I'll be more than satisfied.