Erwin Puts on Magenta Madness

[blakley]

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Pascal, you wrote "I do not want a reviewer to write what he feels. I want him to write what he found using serious testing and appropriate means."

 

If Erwin were testing the camera or performing a technical review, I'd agree with you. But his referenced column is not a report of a test. He doesn't claim it's a test. It's an essay. It appears in the "comments" section of his site, not the "Leica" section. He doesn't even list it as part of his M8 review (of which he's published two parts and advertises a third as coming soon).

 

Erwin sometimes reviews lenses using highly technical tests. When he does that, he's doing what you say you want. But he's under no obligation to do what you want - he can do what he wants. What he wants to do here is express an opinion about what Leica has and has not accomplished with the M8 and how they've handled the introduction of the product.

 

I for one DO want reviewers to write what they feel as well as what they test. I've used a Canon EOS 1DsMkII. I used it with a Canon 85/1.2 lens. I read all the reviews first. The specs were great. The feature set is beyond belief. The technical performance of the camera and the lens were, just as reported, outstanding in every way.

 

I didn't buy the camera (another one in a long line of digital cameras I didn't buy) because everything about it felt wrong. The control system didn't work the way I worked. The settings I like to use are "psychologically far apart", so I get disoriented when trying to change them. Physically it feels wrong in my hand. And I didn't like the way the pictures looked. There was nothing technically wrong with them - in fact they were technically better than results from any digital camera I'd tried up to that point, and also technically better than any 35mm film results I'd gotten. But they were, to my eye, aesthetically mediocre. No amount of "serious testing and appropriate means" could have discovered that problem. A photographer writing what he feels might tell me something meaningful about a problem like this - especially a photographer who likes the same kind of pictures I do.

[pascal_meheut]

Yes, in this cas you have a point. However, what I meant about Puts is that the methods he uses to test digital cameras are inappropriate, IMHO.

 

And that he can lead him to wrong conclusions, even when he expresses such personnal feelings.

 

I think for instance to "For me the more problematic areas are the noise at ISO values above 320 and the low performance of the automatic white balance"...

 

White balance can be improved of course but photographers are used to deal with this. Not every camera has a perfect AWB, in fact even a D2X can be wrong sometimes. Same for noise above 320 ISO. Only a few cameras on the market are better than the M8 and once again, we are used to handle noise. I even had 2 plugins to do so on my computer before buying the M8.

 

But the IR problem makes my M8 hard to use till I got filters. And after spending 4250€ to buy one, I may have so spend another 1000€ to get it solved.

And the solution won't allow me to use all the lenses I might want.

 

I'm ready to accept this because the camera is so nice and has no competitor, I will not start to bash Leica or whatever.

And I did not even reported publicly all the problems I had with my brand new M8 because some of them are specific to my sample.

However, IR sensitivity is the main issue now, followed by banding, followed by poor QA. Because they directly affect the usability of the camera in main circumstances and the trust we may have in it.

 

And if Puts does not see this, I respectfully disagree with him because for me, a camera must be able to shoot real subjects and give the expected images. Not something impossible to predict.

[blakley]

I'm with you on everything here, Pascal. I do indeed think that Erwin doesn't have the deep knowledge necessary to test a digital camera's sensor, and that he's on much safer ground when he's testing lenses - which is OK; we can just go elsewhere for our technical information on how camera bodies perform.

 

And I do agree with you that IR contamination is really the make-or-break issue with the M8. If it gets fixed fairly quickly in a way that's reasonably simple for photographers, the camera will be a great success; if not, then the camera will be in for a lot of trouble.

[blakley]

And by the way, I've pretty much given up on the Automatic White Balance already (after one week). I can't figure out why AWB always seems to work so badly, when custom white balance has worked perfectly on every camera I've ever tried it on. Would it be so hard to just build a little white reflective surface and a WB sensor into the camera?

[Vivek Iyer]

I think what he's written is much more instructive than a lot of what you read here and elsewhere.

 

Hmm.. Bob. May I suggest that you stop reading anything posted here and elsewhere then?

 

If all the internet postings/discussions are that futile, Leica (and others) should not bother and get on with what they think is the best for them.

[zackwhamboing]

 

BTW, did he notice the problem in this wonderful review where he shoot resolution charts ?

 

Yes he did! Puts wrote September 16, the very first day his M8 review was online:

"and you see that the Leica has trouble with the colour information. The Siemens star shows that the lack of a low-pass filter is not always an advantage, but in fact these trade offs are already well-known in the field."

 

he removed this part of the comment later this day;)

[blakley]

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Hmm.. Bob. May I suggest that you stop reading anything posted here and elsewhere then?

 

If all the internet postings/discussions are that futile, Leica (and others) should not bother and get on with what they think is the best for them.

 

Vivek, I'm not quite sure what you're reading, but what I actually wrote was that Erwin's column was "more instructive than a lot of what you read here and elsewhere" - not "more instructive than everything here" or "more instructive than anything anywhere".

 

I also don't recall writing anything remotely resembling "all the internet postings/discussions are futile". In fact, Jamie Roberts, Marc Williams, Guy Mancuso, and others are doing very useful things and posting them here. Some of these postings may even be helpful to the Leica engineers working on solving the problems - I suspect that those guys don't need a huge amount of help from us, but they might learn something useful.

[Vivek Iyer]

Thanks for the clarification, Bob. Erwin also alludes to "internet" "blowing up" things, etc (while putting stuff out on the web himself!).

 

Notice the calm on the "feisty" site? They don't have anyone to pick on!

I would name names and not say something that is open to interpretations.

(purpose of my earlier post).

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Frankly i think this site and forum is doing one hell of a job working through the issues testing and coming up with software, hardware and some real concrete conclusions to the issues and to the work arounds. We have our moments but overall , there is not a better place to be than right here working on it. So piss on anyone that says otherwise. My 2 cents.

[drjon]

Well said again Guy; you are quite right, this forum has been highly enlightening and reassuring, especially for the non-experts, non-professionals like me who, dare I say this, take photos for fun (what's that) and as a creative outlet. For those who think otherwise, may all their problems be magenta ones.

[elviskennedy]

Don't you see? Unlike other sites, Erwin's reviews come with a money back guarantee. Since his reviews are free - if you don't agree or if you are led astray you get your... Oh, forget it.

[craigrmurray]

and when 'Blind Freddy' adds his spiel the circle will be complete

Imants: Who is "Bline Freddy"? Sounds like an old gravelly-voiced bluesman from the delta.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Don't you see? Unlike other sites, Erwin's reviews come with a money back guarantee. Since his reviews are free - if you don't agree or if you are led astray you get your... Oh, forget it.

 

 

Free is absolutely worthless when the information is bad to begin with. really he said something completely different than we already said. Gimme me a break

[Guest stnami]

Blind Freddy

(Australian) Imaginary incapacitated person. Used as a standard or archetype of incapacity, in the sense that if Blind Freddy can see or know something then it must be obvious.

[pascal_meheut]

Free is absolutely worthless when the information is bad to begin with. really he said something completely different than we already said. Gimme me a break

 

My point exactly. And I read the subscription site reviews. They are quite close to my personal experience and I never found something outrageous in it. When I read Puts review of the DMR, I wondered if he ever used the camera or knew the difference between an high-end DSLR and a cheap P&S...

 

Besides, when "free" started to mean automatic high quality ?

[adan]

Guy - the funny thing is, Erwin more or less ends up in the same place you do in your "I'm not sure I'll fix it" thread - the tradeoff is better IR and color performance against better corner resolution, and you and Erwin (and I) all have a gut feeling we really prefer the resolution. As, apparently, did Leica.

 

No, Erwin doesn't fully comprehend digital yet - witness his reliance on jpegs for so many of his observations.

 

Pascal: "Free" just means that it's guaranteed to be worth what you paid for it.

 

8^)

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Very true Andy and i promise i did not even read his until well after mine and even at that i just glanced at it and rolled my eyes , same stuff different day. He does a great job on lenses and bought some from his reviews but digital is a area that not sure he truly understand it all. I mean i never heard him say the words color management or anything like that. Don't even let me start on the jpeg thing.

[Lucklik]

Sorry to say so but in the digital area, the guy is as obsolete as a 1936 Leica IIIa.

I'm lucky my IIIa is from 1938, still 2 years to go before it will become obsolete.

Luc

[Lucklik]

I met Erwin Puts a couple of time and I think he is an honest man.

I have also learned a lot from him, directly and with reading his articles.

His remarks about the magenta madness make sense to me and I like to read his articles.

 

But I also understand the frustration of the people who have bought an M8 and discouver that the M8 is not yet as good as the have expected.

I'm looking forward to hear from Leica how the will tackle this problem.

rgs

Luc

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[arthury]

He was just attempting to re-adjust expectations.

I agree with him that Leica AG blew the expectations of potential buyers thru the roof with all of their early marketing efforts.