jflachmann Posted November 18, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am already owning an M8 and I would not go for an exclusively B&W one. The camera like it is provides me with a maximum of flexibility. I even guess, that a B&W only camera without the bayer pattern in front of the ccd sensor would be much more expensive than the M8 is today. Somebody really out there to pay much more than 5000? Jens Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 18, 2006 Posted November 18, 2006 Hi jflachmann, Take a look here Poll: Who would purchase a B&W ONLY digital M? . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Vivek Iyer Posted November 18, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 18, 2006 Without the Bayer pattern (dyes put on the CCD sensor by Kodak) and the circuitary to deal with color information, it should be cheaper. Just like B&W film prices vs color film prices. $3,000/unit tag is realistic. $5,000 is getting into medium format digital back territory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 18, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 18, 2006 I would love this camera as a B&W unit ... but leave out the digital sensor ... and put film sprockets back in. In other words a M7 type camera with the M8 shutter : -) Still would keep the MP3 for that "Leica" cloth shutter whisper, but could really use 1/8000th shutter when shooting the Luxes outside in the sun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan.S Posted November 18, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 18, 2006 To JR and anybody, you already made your decision, because you all have bought BW cameras already. Actually with the exception of Foveon there is no such thing as a "color" digitalcamera. All actual (Bayer)cameras are BW with filters(on each pixel) and so all you have to do is use software to bring together the 3 differently filtered channel in a channel mixer to get the full BW resolution of the chip ( pixelwise spoken). It even leaves you the freedom (which a pure BW solution would lack) to switch the filtering of the picture troughout the whole color spectrum to resolve eaxctly the image that you want afterwards. Ansel Adams would have given his right arm for this probably. So............. nice idea but (besides of the speed gain) pretty much useless. But...... of course I know what you mean. I used a Dicomed Bigshot BW as well as aLeaf DCB II Live (a loooooong time ago..94-97) and a did a couple of Portrait shots without the filter wheels. Base speed was around 400 ASA and the images where really nice, soft and of a special quality, we even did some printouts with our Iris on A3+ which really were nice. I still have the DCB II somewhere in a box in my cellar because I always said I would do some erotic and portrait shots one day with it. But plans are plans and time goes by............ Greetings from Munich Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj37 Posted November 23, 2006 Share #25 Posted November 23, 2006 If RGB (10mp each) layers are removed, potentially one could have a 30mp B&W camera I'm not sure I believe this. If I understand correctly, the current M8 sensor does NOT have 10 megapixels of sensors each for R, G and B. It has a single 10mp sensor, with R, G and B filters placed over the photosites (twice as many G and R or B.) Since each photosite returns a chroma value only for the color of its filter, its values for the other two colors are calculated from those of adjacent photosites using the "Bayer dither" algorithm. But, even with the filters removed, you'd still be getting only 10 megapixels of luminance data over the whole image -- so, even a monochrome version with the same sensor would still be "only" a 10-megapixel camera. Can one of our more technically-minded readers backstop me on this as to whether I am understanding this correctly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 23, 2006 Share #26 Posted November 23, 2006 aj, you are right. Vivek must have temporarily blown a fuse or had a few Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamilsukun Posted November 23, 2006 Share #27 Posted November 23, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would seriously consider buying a high end digital B&W Leica. I can imagine what a broad range of photographic opportunites a specialized digital camera like this can offer. BTW, which camera manufacturer could feel obliged to serve B&W photography other than Lecia. This is a very good idea. Magnificent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted November 23, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 23, 2006 I don't know, but I am kind of blown away by the jpegs with the black and white setting. It isn't like 'no colour' or desaturated. I don't know if it's the lens (older 35 I have) or the sensor, but it's unlike any other digital I've had. I used to think a dedicated bw would be cool, but I can only (not) afford one M8. May I ask, how does one exploit the infrared possibilities with this camera in black and white? That's a question I was just going to ask: How is the b&w option in the M8? I have b&w with my D200, but I think it's flat and lifeless. Just desaturated RGB. Same thing with the Canon G7. Until I find a digital camera that'll allow me to get the look of APX 100 in Rodinal, or FP4+ in Xtol, or Plus X or Tri-X in D76, even with a little help from PS, I will keep shooting film b&w along with digital, depsite the processing and the scanning and what not. Now, if the M8's b&w is useful, that's good news. I was considering selling what 35 mm film gear I have left, and a couple MF as well, to finance a used M6/M7 to go along with the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henning Posted November 23, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 23, 2006 Depends on what its spectral sensitivity is. If it's panchromatic with about twice the sensitivity towards the blue end vs red, then I'd find it potentially interesting. If it's grossly red sensitive and poorly IR filtered I'd pass. Quite clearly then they'd be able to sell one to either you or me, but not both. I'd take the one with extended IR sensitivity in an instant; in fact the rumours of one is what has kept me from getting the current M8. Incidentally, the rumour also stated that the MP count would be about 15 or so. This would not be the same sensor as the current M8 sensor without the bayer pattern, but a completely different sensor, and the cost would almost certainly be higher. Henning Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henning Posted November 23, 2006 Share #30 Posted November 23, 2006 To JR and anybody, you already made your decision, because you all have bought BW cameras already. Actually with the exception of Foveon there is no such thing as a "color" digitalcamera. All actual (Bayer)cameras are BW with filters(on each pixel) and so all you have to do is use software to bring together the 3 differently filtered channel in a channel mixer to get the full BW resolution of the chip ( pixelwise spoken). It even leaves you the freedom (which a pure BW solution would lack) to switch the filtering of the picture troughout the whole color spectrum to resolve eaxctly the image that you want afterwards. Ansel Adams would have given his right arm for this probably. So............. nice idea but (besides of the speed gain) pretty much useless. Stefan Actually, you gain quite a bit more. All current colour digital cameras except the Foveon are compromised by the bayer pattern and subsequent algorithms. A true B&W camera would not only have higher speed, it would also have fewer errant artifacts at the pixel level and greater dynamic range. A 15Mp Leica M8 should be able to perform as well as a top end medium format back (30+) Mp with suitable glass. As far as tailoring spectral response through filtering; you are quite right. It's back to the coloured filters, though likely the response will be noticeably different, and not as overly blue sensitive as film. Henning Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henning Posted November 23, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 23, 2006 I'm not sure I believe this. If I understand correctly, the current M8 sensor does NOT have 10 megapixels of sensors each for R, G and B. It has a single 10mp sensor, with R, G and B filters placed over the photosites (twice as many G and R or B.) Since each photosite returns a chroma value only for the color of its filter, its values for the other two colors are calculated from those of adjacent photosites using the "Bayer dither" algorithm. But, even with the filters removed, you'd still be getting only 10 megapixels of luminance data over the whole image -- so, even a monochrome version with the same sensor would still be "only" a 10-megapixel camera. Can one of our more technically-minded readers backstop me on this as to whether I am understanding this correctly? You're correct aj37. There are about 2.5million red and blue each, and 5million green sites. If you 'reconstruct' the initial B&W information, you wind up with 10million B&W luminance sites muddied by the bayer pattern filters and recombination algorithms. In effect, a 'smudged' 10mp with introduced artifacts. Nothing like a true 10mp B&W camera, Just take a look at what a true B&W camera can do. There was an article by someone who had one of the Kodak B&W cameras which was posted on the Luminous Landscape site. Henning Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 23, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 23, 2006 Hi There assuming that it all worked properly, I'd buy it in an instance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 23, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 23, 2006 As far as tailoring spectral response through filtering; you are quite right. It's back to the coloured filters, though likely the response will be noticeably different, and not as overly blue sensitive as film. This probably can be done as part of the data massaging in the camera ... if people can write PS plug-ins to simulate the color filters, IR, etc, I don't see why this can't be done within the firmware. Imagine the menu selection items in terms of different color filtration, IR responses ... or just leave it as a complete set of RAW profiles dedicated to black and white? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted November 23, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 23, 2006 Nope. What for. Digital is supposed to be convenient, which also implies flexible. If it isnt, you might as well shoot film. Very narrow niche market tool for some professionals specific application. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastdap@mac.com Posted November 24, 2006 Share #35 Posted November 24, 2006 i'm already on the list. when i was asked months ago the very speculative question "if leica were to offer a b&w only camera would i buy one?" to which i replied, seriously, "put me on the list" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asher Kelman Posted November 24, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 24, 2006 Hi Thereassuming that it all worked properly, I'd buy it in an instance I have no doubt Jono that it will be perfectly executed, Jono! So you will get the M8 bw! Me too! This camera makes sense. It would provide such a large leap above any other easily carryable intimate solution for B&W photography. I can see the meadows in the U.K. with your dog in one of these pictures already! I think such an M8 version is not much of a challenge for Leica. It's more like making a limited anniversary edition! Asher http://www.openphotographyforums.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 24, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 24, 2006 It would certainly be attractive and, from Leica's point of view, not a huge development effort if the same sensor, modified for black and white with modified firmware could be used. I don't expect the camera would be any cheaper though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodaktrix Posted November 24, 2006 Share #38 Posted November 24, 2006 I would seriously consider buying one. I do not consider buying the actual one. Best regards Oliver Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodaktrix Posted November 24, 2006 Share #39 Posted November 24, 2006 In addition: It should work with non-coded lenses! It should be RAW only, so that there is no need for that f...ing backdoor monitor. I am used to develop my films outside the camera, and I will "develop" the files outside the camera. I want a strictly professional "point and shoot" not a "point and shoot and brood"! I would buy a digital MP without thinking twice. Best regards Oliver Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 24, 2006 Share #40 Posted November 24, 2006 With these riders on the camera It should work with non-coded lenses!It should be RAW only, so that there is no need for that f...ing backdoor monitor. I am used to develop my films outside the camera, and I will "develop" the files outside the camera. I want a strictly professional "point and shoot" not a "point and shoot and brood"! I guess you will have to..... buy the actual one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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