dfarkas Posted August 22, 2009 Share #21 Posted August 22, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) In regards to cameras not much is really made in the US anymore. Sure be nice to buy a product that supports our economy but if nothing exist than really no choice. On the same token I have two German cars and a Japanese car and has nothing to do with buying a Chevy except we like ours better . Although the Jetta could be made here but my Lexus comes from Japan and my wife's BMW is a German product. Heck also there are no TV's made in the US that I know of. I think people buy on what they need or want and really don't think much when they do buy it maybe afterward but maybe this is generally speaking but most people may not care . It's a global economy and even a BMW may have some US technology in the build. Personally from my point of view , it's a way overdone priority to buy from your homeland. Maybe this is more a European mentality than a US one, not sure. I certainly don't buy a Leica because it is German and actually more a hassle for me in some ways. Repairs and such Interesting little tidbit.... BMW is largest exporter of American-made cars (or at least was when this was published a year or two ago). Think about that one for a second. Their Spartansburg, SC factory exlusively makes X5s and Z4s for shipment all over the globe. These two models are only made in the USA. The workers are very well paid and well treated with great benefits (sans Unoins). David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 Hi dfarkas, Take a look here Phase One P65+ vs. 5DII. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dfarkas Posted August 22, 2009 Share #22 Posted August 22, 2009 Actually, I think Americans generally are far bigger on buying local than Europeans, just not you guys Try to sell a Virago to a Harley owner... Buying local makes sense, as it supports the local economy. The second part is that the cheap stuff is often made in countries which don't take care of their citizens, like China. There is so much pollution there, and look at all the employee abuse which filters through to the west. Imagine that this is only the tip of the iceberg. So the second part of buying locally is not to support regimes of such countries. I actively try not to buy Chinese, although it is hard. That will only change one day when Tibet is given back, and labour laws are improved and enforced. What would happen if US companies with factories in China were made to obey all US labor laws and environmental standards, including minimum wage requirements, work week hour limits, and OSHA safety compliance? Would offshore manufacture still be as attractive? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 22, 2009 Share #23 Posted August 22, 2009 It's problematic because it means a loss of know-how and real economic power - just pushing money around the world and spending all your consume power to foreign products without selling an adequate amount of products to foreign countries leads to severe problems... Leica is not only the last bigger consumer-camera-manufacturer outside Japan, it also means that it's the last different choice - Canon, Nikon, Sony... aren't much closer by accident, they were established by the same mentality and therefore will share strengths but also weaknesses - diversity isn't just an advantage in genetics :-) You don't have to worry to buy a German product because it's most likely not your choice over an American product because standards in social, ecological or safety are compromised. The money is given to broad social structures and easily finds it's way back into your pockets. Mexican or Chinese products are different in 99% of the cases, they compromise standards and all you end up with is lower quality, worse working conditions, environmental problems and short-sighted companies which are unable to survive against cheap opponents which somehow got American technology... By the way, I met people from BMW which happened to work in Spartanburg and people from Mercedes in Tuscaloosa. Both regions aren't known for the car-industry, the workers never seen modern car production before. But they're cheap by north american standards offer subventions and are easy to blackmail. My friends were shocked by the local standards, for BMW/Mercedes those are just cheap "sweatshops" they can throw away whenever they want to - people are paid not even half as well as in Germany... It's the same with the factories by Toyota, Honda or Subaru, some told me even about worse standards. I don't think American cars were competitive over the last decades, even when they were build by well-paid people in Detroit. But letting this industry die would be still a great loss and a catastrophy for society and technological development! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted August 22, 2009 Share #24 Posted August 22, 2009 By the way, I met people from BMW which happened to work in Spartanburg and people from Mercedes in Tuscaloosa. Both regions aren't known for the car-industry, the workers never seen modern car production before. But they're cheap by north american standards offer subventions and are easy to blackmail. My friends were shocked by the local standards, for BMW/Mercedes those are just cheap "sweatshops" they can throw away whenever they want to... The standard of living in the American South is not the equal of other parts of the USA --- no argument there. Per capita income is lower, educational attainment is lower, fewer people have health care, etc. and so on. So there's certainly a kernel of truth to the reasons you cite for locating an assembly plant there. But blackmail and "subventions" (not sure what that means)? If you mean taxpayer subsidies or government subsidized training/apprenticeship programs, yes those are undoubtedly used, but this isn't exactly blackmail! It's a pretty accepted form of economic development here in the USA, and far as I know, in Western Europe as well. As for your sweatshop assertion, BMW claims to have invested over $2 billion dollars in the Spartanburg facility, so that's hardly a throw-away asset. It also doesn't exactly look like a sweatshop --- http://www.bmwusfactory.com/#/home/ . Given that they do public tours, I doubt working conditions are too bad. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 22, 2009 Share #25 Posted August 22, 2009 It's problematic because it means a loss of know-how and real economic power - just pushing money around the world and spending all your consume power to foreign products without selling an adequate amount of products to foreign countries leads to severe problems... Leica is not only the last bigger consumer-camera-manufacturer outside Japan, it also means that it's the last different choice - Canon, Nikon, Sony... aren't much closer by accident, they were established by the same mentality and therefore will share strengths but also weaknesses - diversity isn't just an advantage in genetics :-) You don't have to worry to buy a German product because it's most likely not your choice over an American product because standards in social, ecological or safety are compromised. The money is given to broad social structures and easily finds it's way back into your pockets. Mexican or Chinese products are different in 99% of the cases, they compromise standards and all you end up with is lower quality, worse working conditions, environmental problems and short-sighted companies which are unable to survive against cheap opponents which somehow got American technology... By the way, I met people from BMW which happened to work in Spartanburg and people from Mercedes in Tuscaloosa. Both regions aren't known for the car-industry, the workers never seen modern car production before. But they're cheap by north american standards offer subventions and are easy to blackmail. My friends were shocked by the local standards, for BMW/Mercedes those are just cheap "sweatshops" they can throw away whenever they want to - people are paid not even half as well as in Germany... It's the same with the factories by Toyota, Honda or Subaru, some told me even about worse standards. I don't think American cars were competitive over the last decades, even when they were build by well-paid people in Detroit. But letting this industry die would be still a great loss and a catastrophy for society and technological development! Have you personally ever been to either one of these facilities? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share #26 Posted August 22, 2009 Considering that Germany is either the number one or the number two exporting country (in total dollars) it seems that there isn't much reason for worry. Exports (most recent) by country I've owned three US made SUV. All have been excellent. Back in the early 70s I worked in my cousin's camera store in Washington DC. When I showed one person a Nikon he said, "I fought the Japanese during the war." So I said "Well, we have German... but I guess that is not too good for you either." That left Hasselblad (but German lenses once they switched from Kodak glass) and Alpa (French and Swiss.) Even then there were no American cameras to speak of despite the confusion about "Honeywell Pentax." I bet he would have gone for a Chinese camera if he couldn't buy an American one. My cousin, who owned the store, had fled Germany in 1936 and she didn't seem to have a problem selling Leicas and other German brands. So I don't see why a German would have a problem buying Japanese or Chinese. Many countries depend on free trade and it sure beats going to war with each other. American companies that would be capable of making high end digital SLRs most likely have much more profitable businesses to invest their resources in. Do you think GE should still be making light meters? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 22, 2009 Share #27 Posted August 22, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The standard of living in the American South is not the equal of other parts of the USA --- no argument there. Per capita income is lower, educational attainment is lower, fewer people have health care, etc. and so on. So there's certainly a kernel of truth to the reasons you cite for locating an assembly plant there. But blackmail and "subventions" (not sure what that means)? If you mean taxpayer subsidies or government subsidized training/apprenticeship programs, yes those are undoubtedly used, but this isn't exactly blackmail! It's a pretty accepted form of economic development here in the USA, and far as I know, in Western Europe as well. As for your sweatshop assertion, BMW claims to have invested over $2 billion dollars in the Spartanburg facility, so that's hardly a throw-away asset. It also doesn't exactly look like a sweatshop --- http://www.bmwusfactory.com/#/home/ . Given that they do public tours, I doubt working conditions are too bad. Jeff. Actually locating a plant in the South is preferred for many companies. Usually the main reasons is land costs, taxes and labor force and such. Most small cities give very large tax breaks to big companies for locating there in return it builds the infrastructure of the city and gives it economic growth. ALL positive for company and city. I see it as a win win. But what makes this even relevant to the topic is truly beyond me. LOL Not directed at anyone but man can we get over this stupid shit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 23, 2009 Share #28 Posted August 23, 2009 But what makes this even relevant to the topic is truly beyond me. LOL Not directed at anyone but man can we get over this stupid shit I wouldn't be surprised that many people will feel their social responsibilities and moral obligations when using the world's most luxurious photographic equipment to expose the miserable life and darkest corners of modern society, this has been one of the Leica shooters' most favorite subject matters for decades. Boy, if they do care, they should donate their money to the slave workers in China, Mexico, South Carolina or Dalai Lama instead of blowing it on a luxury camera. Sorry about the rant, Guy and Alan ... what else shall we talk about before the S2 samples show up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share #29 Posted August 23, 2009 ...what else shall we talk about before the S2 samples show up? How about Shamwow? They're made in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 23, 2009 Share #30 Posted August 23, 2009 How about Shamwow? They're made in Germany. Wow, 10 years warranty ... sounds much better value than any digital camera. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 23, 2009 Share #31 Posted August 23, 2009 How about Shamwow? They're made in Germany. Or shampoo. What is all this talk about shampoo. I don't want shampoo, give me the real poo! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 23, 2009 Share #32 Posted August 23, 2009 Apologize my English/vocabulary, "sweatshops" (easy to find in the textile industry in Asia) and "slave labour" is of course an entirely different standard than establishing factory in an underdeveloped part of the western world. It's not just the southern states but also east Germany for example. But the point is, that the reason for those locations has absolutely nothing to do with quality or offering any kind of technological/social/environmental progress. Of course those people are happy to have their non-union, not so well-paid job but from a long-sighted perspective, it's about getting rid of the well-paid workers and established factories (Detroit or Bavaria for example). BMW fired over 8000 people (of course with a social plan, sending them to pension...) shortly after they announced the best profit in history. Why was that possible? Because they established a larger second-class workforce in Spartanburg and Leipzig (east Germany). Any why? To increase shareholder-value! And what happens to all the people who lost their job in Detroit, what's with the lack of consume power and drop of tax revenue caused by lower wages? At the same time, the government had to pay millions to support those "weaker regions" by giving the companies money to establish new factories there! Is it so difficult to see that this leads to serious problems? Arent't we in serious problems right now? @R10dreamer I haven't personally seen Tuscaloosa or Spartanburg (very good friends told me, I wouldn't share this information unless I would be certain), but I've seen other "second-class" factories by various companies.and I know the facts (just look at the wages or number of workers with a technical education of over 3 years - BMWs largest plant in Dingolfing has 90% those craftsmen established over decades, most of them educated by BMW - not with tax money!). But two simple examples: The first series of Tuscaloosas' M-Class for the european market was send to Graz (Austria) to rework the cars for the more demanding market! The windshield (at least till 2 years ago) was assembled by hand in Tuscaloosa, that's not a big deal if it's done by skilled people with enough time - but not in serial production! We constantly have problems with missaligned windshields! In Germany, they introduced the first roboter (with laser measuring system) to do that work 20 years ago! But it's an expensive machine and needs skilled workers to maintain, difficult to get if you don't offer young people a real technical education (>3years) and the good people already moved away to places where they're better paid! Trust me, we Germans have seen on a smaller scale (just 16 million people from east Germany) what happens if you let those things happen, our government paid billions to destroy (better) jobs in west Germany - accidently, because they wanted to support east Germany! Now, billions of taxes are lost and we haven't got much further in technology, social standards... Trust me, those companies aren't long-sighted, they small children, they want things and don't care about the consequences (even if it affects themselves). If BMW can find a cheaper place to build cars for the US-market, they simply throw away their 2b$-factory in Spartanburg and try to get new tax money from other states! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 23, 2009 Share #33 Posted August 23, 2009 georg, I think you are equating education with intelligence. Two different things. I do not believe that the intelligence levels between regions are that demonstratively different. Education levels? That is a different thing. Regardless, craftspeople, that are intelligent, are capable of learning anything they are taught. Educated people that are stupid are useless. It all depends on the training and management offered to the employees. But I do agree that corporations have fallen into the pit of their short term P & L's. That is a situation that unfortunately has infested corporations all around the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 23, 2009 Share #34 Posted August 23, 2009 I wouldn't be surprised that many people will feel their social responsibilities and moral obligations when using the world's most luxurious photographic equipment to expose the miserable life and darkest corners of modern society, this has been one of the Leica shooters' most favorite subject matters for decades. Boy, if they do care, they should donate their money to the slave workers in China, Mexico, South Carolina or Dalai Lama instead of blowing it on a luxury camera. Sorry about the rant, Guy and Alan ... what else shall we talk about before the S2 samples show up? I don't know , no one is asking any real questions or really don't care about the S2. But since I have this moment my next workshop in October on the Oregon coast will have All the Phase backs, Cameras and Tech cameras on site plus we will also have Leica their as well as always with their latest and greatest stuff. Hopefully I can get my hands on a S2 ( no promises). So folks can try all this out plus learn a ton about shooting and processing. At least this is related and beneficial . I only have 2 spots left so hurry. Other than that I will answer any question anyone has in private or on the forum on this technology. Hopefully we will see some images soon especially some raws to process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 23, 2009 Share #35 Posted August 23, 2009 @R10dreamer I've met many people who claimed to be skilled craftspeople but in fact made me wonder how they past the tests of their technical education in Germany... I also think that there are a few very talented people who are capable to achieve highest craftsmenship without education just by experience and reproduction. But in most cases, a solid technical education (there are thousands of different educations offered in German companies, but as we talk about "German Engineering"/"Made in Germany" I focus on the only part of our industry I have experience in) is the backbone of your future skill besides your talent. You need years beyond the basics you learned as a "Lehrling" (a student in the company) to become a skilled craftsman. Intelligence is a different topic, all that companies can do is select those people whose skills fit their job best and then develop their capabilities with a proper education. After all, I'm not talking about engineers, I talk about people in production, those that are elswhere trained just for a few weeks! This kind of production which is based on long-sighted thinking and therefore on well-paid, well-protected and well-educated workers was established about 100 years ago (including social/health insurance, unions, 40h/week, paid vacation...) and is the very reason why we achieved the technological standard we have today. The easy, convenient way done in China (or eastern Europe) resembles the strategy of early industrialism and is a huge step backwards! Strangely, the US-americans can feel quite lucky that at least their military industry wasn't affected by the "shareholder-value-thinking" and is maybe one of the few industrial sectors left that are groundbreaking! It's also the reason why they still have sensor/semiconductor-production, not because Leica buys a few sensors for their M8... Germans on the other hand don't hesitate to buy critical products from any country while giving the technology itself away (basically) for free (Germany is the only country which has all the production technology/machines for high-end semiconductors, displays or sensors but barely doesn't use it themselves - TFT-production was given up in 1993, years before it started to become a mass-market because it was cheaper in China/Taiwan)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 23, 2009 Share #36 Posted August 23, 2009 georg, I absolutely agree. Claiming and being are two different things. I understand you though and see no reason to talk this into circles. So, I think we can agree that we tend to agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share #37 Posted August 23, 2009 @R10dreamer Strangely, the US-americans can feel quite lucky that at least their military industry wasn't affected by the "shareholder-value-thinking" and is maybe one of the few industrial sectors left that are groundbreakings Intel, Microsoft, AMD, Apple, Applied Materials, TI, IBM, Merck, Monsanto, GE, a huge biotech and advanced medical techology industry, oil and gas technology, chemical, and on and on... In the 30s and 40s Germany was a criminal state. It only is where it is now because the US treated it pretty well after the war. First the Marshall plan and then years of keeping the Soviets out during the cold war. I really don't give a rip about protecting the standard of living of German workers. Americans have done more than enough for Germany already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 24, 2009 Share #38 Posted August 24, 2009 Intel, Microsoft, AMD, Apple, Applied Materials, TI, IBM, Merck, Monsanto, GE, a huge biotech and advanced medical techology industry, oil and gas technology, chemical, and on and on... In the 30s and 40s Germany was a criminal state. It only is where it is now because the US treated it pretty well after the war. First the Marshall plan and then years of keeping the Soviets out during the cold war. I really don't give a rip about protecting the standard of living of German workers. Americans have done more than enough for Germany already. This should get interesting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted August 24, 2009 Share #39 Posted August 24, 2009 Alan G, I've just offered you friendship via your profile function! Kind regards from Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted August 31, 2009 Share #40 Posted August 31, 2009 It only is where it is now because the US treated it pretty well after the war. First the Marshall plan and then years of keeping the Soviets out during the cold war. I really don't give a rip about protecting the standard of living of German workers. Americans have done more than enough for Germany already. Germany is where it is now and that's the only fact, no one could ever say where it should have been now without the Marshall plan or any other intervention. What could have been it's not a fact, that's just a guess. China is where it is now, and that's without any Marshall plan or whatever. May be this the wrong or the right "standard living", and that's just different as the POV is different IMHO. Nevermind, please guys, let's stay objective and serious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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