AlanG Posted August 20, 2009 Share #1 Posted August 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) This relates to the S2 in that I think it is important to see what top of the line MF gear can do compared with 35mm gear. I've been trying to get a clear picture on some MF gear lately. Yesterday I went to a friends haous and looked at some portraits that he made with the 31 megapixel Phase One back and Mamiya camera. Shots he made with the 80mm between f4 and 5.6 showed very detailed faces but he had such a narrow plane of focus that getting the eyes sharp was tough. Today I "played with" a P65+, 28mm, 80 and 75-150 zoom on a Phase One (Mamiya body.) I am not saying that I made a scientific test, or even really explored the systems. I mostly wanted to see how the 60 megapixel back and 28mm lens (approximately 18mm 35mm equivalent) would do. This is kind of a "real world" test for me to get an idea what this $40,000 back could do in my typical interior work. I wish I could have compared it with an 18mm prime, but I used my 16-35 zoom and plan to test again when I get the 17mm TS-E. (This is in my home so it is pretty easy to duplicate.) And it would be nice if I could shoot again with a P65+ back and a wide lens on a technical camera. I also learned a lot from talking to the dealer. I've linked to a montage that just gives an idea of the difference in resolution in the middle area. I can't say I tried to make perfectly adjusted conversions, and haven't had much time to play around with the files and really study them. But I'd say overall that their dynamic range and color qualities look comparable. (The DXO conversion is a bit more blocked up in the deep shadows, but I didn't spend a lot of time making adjustments and trying to match things.) The link - remember to magnify it to full size: http://www.goldsteinphoto.com/Posts/phase-canon.jpg I was in a hurry and set up this page pretty quickly... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 20, 2009 Posted August 20, 2009 Hi AlanG, Take a look here Phase One P65+ vs. 5DII. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 20, 2009 Share #2 Posted August 20, 2009 FYI the Mamiya 28mm will be soft in the corners on the P65 just a well known fact. Their is a lens correction for this lens in C1 . May want to apply that lens first than you can play with the corner sharpness adjustment try 185 plus. I can show plenty of 28mm shots with a P30 or almost any back if I can find them but with the crop factor the 28mm is much nicer than on a P65 which shows almost FF of a 645. The one lens that has a hard time in the very far corners and the older 35mm lens. The 35mm lens can use a new D replacement at this point . Wish you had the 150 D to try out Alan the lens correction in C1 if you select the Mamiya 28mm it will bring up all the adjustments for the lens Ca, Purple Fringing, Vignetting, Corner sharpness and a few others. Like Phocus for Hassy these corrections are in the raw processing side of the house. The S2 will not have these external corrections available since Leica believes they have all that corrected at the time of shooting with there internal lens correction. BTW F11 is pretty good but F16 is really good on the 28mm . MF think 2 or more stops than what you think normal should be . BIG SENSOR needs lot's of F stops. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 20, 2009 Share #3 Posted August 20, 2009 This is from a P30 + with a 28mm at F11 . I did have to remove some content from the image for reasons I will not explain. But from corner to corner it is very crisp. In reality on the P65 you need to think of it as a 31 or 30mm lens instead. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/93972-phase-one-p65-vs-5dii/?do=findComment&comment=1000080'>More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted August 21, 2009 Yes Guy, I know about the lens sharpness slider and other corrections in C-1. As a matter of fact, that was one of the first things the dealer told me too. As I said, I didn't have too much time to work on the files, so I only posted the one example. I only shot the one angle and am not trying to make any sweeping conclusions about the camera system overall. I guess I should have also tested the P45+ back. I just wanted to find a baseline for my wide angle work using the highest res back with the largest sensor. At my leisure I will shoot some 35mm photos and stitch them to see how they compare. There are quite a few factors of using an MF digital back with w/a lenses and movements on a view camera that cause me enough concern that stitching might be a better and faster solution. (As I will be shooting static subjects.) If I shot mostly people for ads, I'd surely have a digital MF system. Yes I should have shot at f16 as that was what I generally tried to use on 6x9 with a 47 Super Angulon XL. But one thing I like about using 35mm is I can shoot at f8 or faster and still get enough DOF. That sometimes can be the difference between using a few strobes and a truckload of strobes. (With film I had self cocking shutters and could multi-pop.) On the example I posted one telling thing is comparing the 100% Canon image with the P65+ image that was output to that same size. (2/3rds of maximum.) The Phase shot is still sharper which leads me to think that there is room for improvement of the lens or sensor or micro-lenses on the Canon as it is not getting as much out of that size file as the Phase does. I am sure that the 16-35 doesn't get the most out of the 5DII at 18mm at f8. And my 17 TS-E has been on order since June. It was surprising to me how similar the color and tones are considering CMOS vs.CCD and all of the other factors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 21, 2009 Share #5 Posted August 21, 2009 Yea I figured you ran through it pretty quickly there and just wanted to give you some heads up. Now stitching with MF and a tech back you will have to shoot LCC corrections at each setting and sounds like a real pain but not to bad but that is a long conversation and maybe not the place for it. For stitch the Cambo RS1000 is a very sweet setup . Very small with geared movements but we can talk about that another time if you go down that route Our next workshop in Oregon I will have the Cambo's and the P40+, P45+ and P65+ plus the Phase body as well. BTW who was your dealer if I may ask Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted August 21, 2009 BTW who was your dealer if I may ask The dealer is Capture Integration who are in Miami and Atlanta. Steve Hendrix had planned a few days in DC and is making the rounds among some photographers here on his way back from a demo he ran in Philly (I think.) Another friend was at my house but he just bought a Hassy H2 with a 39 megapixel back and 80 for $6995 yesterday. It was a clearance from Hasselblad USA. My friend saw the email before I did and jumped on it while I was on the way to his house. So now I'm looking for a similar deal. http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1064797/cpo_enduser.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 21, 2009 Share #7 Posted August 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The dealer is Capture Integration who are in Miami and Atlanta. Steve Hendrix had planned a few days in DC and is making the rounds among some photographers here on his way back from a demo he ran in Philly (I think.) Another friend was at my house but he just bought a Hassy H2 with a 39 megapixel back and 80 for $6995 yesterday. It was a clearance from Hasselblad USA. My friend saw the email before I did and jumped on it while I was on the way to his house. So now I'm looking for a similar deal. http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1064797/cpo_enduser.pdf Awesome folks and my dealer as well, we are all very good friends and they do support our workshops actually as well as leica. Steve is very knowledgeable and a great guy If your going for a tech camera the Phase is the easier solution. Since the Hassy you need a separate battery pack at 1200 dollars I think but it does have storage to shoot to. Also the P65 and P40 do not need wake up cables which again makes it pretty easy to shoot. I'm sure Steve went all over that stuff for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 21, 2009 Share #8 Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks, Alan. Quite a useful real world test for me. Phase looks considerably better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 21, 2009 Share #9 Posted August 21, 2009 Another friend was at my house but he just bought a Hassy H2 with a 39 megapixel back and 80 for $6995 yesterday. It was a clearance from Hasselblad USA. My friend saw the email before I did and jumped on it while I was on the way to his house. So now I'm looking for a similar deal. http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1064797/cpo_enduser.pdf That was the email they sent out yesterday morning, I've got one too ... these kind of deal goes on every year, the H2 back is much cheaper I guess it's because they can't be used with tech cameras, if this is important to you, you could go for the H3 deal ... for little less than 12k it's quite reasonable. CPO_enduser.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted August 21, 2009 Share #10 Posted August 21, 2009 :confused:Hhhhmmm,,,,somehow I ended up on a Hassy/Canon/Phase one site - my mistake - thought this was a Leica oriented site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted August 21, 2009 :confused:Hhhhmmm,,,,somehow I ended up on a Hassy/Canon/Phase one site - my mistake - thought this was a Leica oriented site. I understand but my motivation was not so much the brand but to give a reference that people will have when they eventually judge the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 21, 2009 Share #12 Posted August 21, 2009 Absolutely. Look anyone going to jump into this category needs to demo all of the brands out their and make these kinds of comparisons. This is what it all comes down to in MF and that is IQ and you really need to know what your jumping into be it Hassy, Phase, Leica , Sinar and also what type of shooting you will do. For Alan the tech camera is obvious because of the work he does daily but he could easily shoot a real body as well. As long as it fits his needs and this is what it is all about is filling the needs you have or in some cases the wants that you want to have. Personally I'm not advocating any system but I am advocating MF it is and was the best move I made in digital. I get extremely excellent quality and happy as can be clients. That says something. I sell the fact that I am shooting a high res. MF system to my clients . Seriously they realize i put out a lot of money into this and i am dead serious about my work. Trust me it sounds like BS but we have to market ourselves and this stuff sells clients. Besides your talent obviously But anyone jumping into it needs to understand it and understand the limits it has and what you can do with it. The S2 given its pricing has to measure up to what exists today or even be better. It brings a new style to shooting in MF category which right there is very exciting. Yes it has it's limitations but if don't need certain things than it can be a good choice. Seriously and maybe i am cost sensitive but anyone spending this type of money that is not filthy rich ( for lack of a better phrase there , sorry) and is serious about photography has to look at all these systems and decide which route to take. Going out and testing the highest resolution back is absolutely no question about it smart and than when the S2 files start coming in you can get a good idea of it's merit. Let's be real honest here yes it is a Leica forum but if you don't peak around the corner and look at other prospect than you really are cheating yourself. I am a leica fan too but certainly am very interested and very involved in the business of photography and most people are. Everyone wants to learn and you can't do that looking at one book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted August 21, 2009 Share #13 Posted August 21, 2009 Affirmative on your comments Alan and Guy. Everyone has their own needs that are surrounded by equipment specs, etc. But I am hoping for a simple, easy to use camera that is remote worthy, meaning that I can be far away from power grids - a 'wilderness camera' for lack of a better term. I want the S2 to replace a Pentax 67 - a big and honkin' camera on it's own - I really don't want to be encumbered by studio equipment, nor can I be. Simplicity and concentration on essentials is all I want including minimal post processing. I do not shoot for daily or weekly clients - I am 'focusing' on three, long term projects. Digitals power hungry nature makes for a different approach - heck, I still fancy the idea of an Arca Swiss Metric or a 6x9 F Classic Compact for film - there are always different solutions. The one thing I do like about the idea of a separate digital back is changing it when the technology changes - or when the sensors life is done. I still believe the S2 will be fine camera, but I have no idea as yet whether it will be a camera that fits my needs - I want to believe it will - but only time will tell. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it as much as you all do - I've come to enjoy the simple life of quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 21, 2009 Share #14 Posted August 21, 2009 Well the one thing nice about any of the bodies including the S2 they are pretty simple in approach and nothing like a Nikon or Canon with a million bells and whistles. They all are pretty no nonsense approach and I shot all three ( S2 prototype) and really nothing on them I would call unnecessary. Even the tech camera's are very simple like a old 4x5 really but the LCC and knowing how to use them takes some time but again not everyone needs or wants a tech camera. The Hassy and Phase are obviously a little more boxy than the style of the S2 which is very much a DSLR. One nice thing folks can do is go to a show coming up in October in NY is Photoplus and you can walk around and try these. I know maybe not in your area but anything you can do to just hold these things. Some will turn you off immediately depending on your style and such and some you may like. But your approach is sound . Take your time figure out what you needs and wants are. Hopefully these discussions help people and all i am trying to do is get everyone info that may help them. Seriously I hope Leica sells these well and it helps keep the company going. I may or may not get one but down the road they may have something I do and want them around for sure. We have lost way to many camera companies lately and it is disturbing to the industry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted August 22, 2009 Share #15 Posted August 22, 2009 Indeed I hope very much that Leica can sell the S system successfully! And all their other camera launches like the M9 etc. And I do hope I am able to afford finally not only the M9, but also the S2 This is the last real European and German camera manufacturer and I really hope they will survive. Or we will get all from Japan, China etc...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted August 22, 2009 Indeed I hope very much that Leica can sell the S system successfully! And all their other camera launches like the M9 etc. And I do hope I am able to afford finally not only the M9, but also the S2 This is the last real European and German camera manufacturer and I really hope they will survive. Or we will get all from Japan, China etc...... I'm not sure why it matters if something is made in Europe or in Asia. But there also are Linhof, Alpa, Sinar, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Schneider, Rodenstock, Seitz, Zeiss and probably some other European manufacturers that I haven't thought of. Digital MF backs are made in Europe and Israel using Kodak and Dalsa sensors. There hasn't been much of a consumer camera industry in the US for several decades and I don't lose any sleep about it. I guess there is Panavision and the stuff in spy satellites, space, and defense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 22, 2009 Share #17 Posted August 22, 2009 Alan, does it not bother you when Hummer is sold to China? What if Boeing was bought up by a Canadian company, or Apple moved to Bermuda? It is not only a question of nationalism, but also finance. The profits will be re-invested in the States for an American company. I think it is sound thinking to preferentially buy products from companies based in the country you live. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 22, 2009 Share #18 Posted August 22, 2009 In regards to cameras not much is really made in the US anymore. Sure be nice to buy a product that supports our economy but if nothing exist than really no choice. On the same token I have two German cars and a Japanese car and has nothing to do with buying a Chevy except we like ours better . Although the Jetta could be made here but my Lexus comes from Japan and my wife's BMW is a German product. Heck also there are no TV's made in the US that I know of. I think people buy on what they need or want and really don't think much when they do buy it maybe afterward but maybe this is generally speaking but most people may not care . It's a global economy and even a BMW may have some US technology in the build. Personally from my point of view , it's a way overdone priority to buy from your homeland. Maybe this is more a European mentality than a US one, not sure. I certainly don't buy a Leica because it is German and actually more a hassle for me in some ways. Repairs and such Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 22, 2009 Share #19 Posted August 22, 2009 Actually, I think Americans generally are far bigger on buying local than Europeans, just not you guys Try to sell a Virago to a Harley owner... Buying local makes sense, as it supports the local economy. The second part is that the cheap stuff is often made in countries which don't take care of their citizens, like China. There is so much pollution there, and look at all the employee abuse which filters through to the west. Imagine that this is only the tip of the iceberg. So the second part of buying locally is not to support regimes of such countries. I actively try not to buy Chinese, although it is hard. That will only change one day when Tibet is given back, and labour laws are improved and enforced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 22, 2009 Share #20 Posted August 22, 2009 When it comes to bikes certainly it is Harley, no doubt about it. Me i would buy a BMW first . Guess I'm the crazy one. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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