S2 and Leica's list of sins

[plevyadophy]

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I wasn't overly excited by the announced specs of the S2.

 

Here's my list of sins:

• Kodak CCD - Not exactly known for making ground breaking sensors, and the sensor should have been CMOS so as to provide LiveView
  
• No LiveView - regarded by many an old fart as just a gimmick, but in fact it is extremely useful for work with tilt-and-shift lenses (see the review on this site of the Canon's new 24mm T & S lens) and, if my memory serves me correctly, Leica have a T & S lens as part of the S System roadmap.
  
• LCD 460,000 dots - pretty rubbish really for a premium product.
  
• Sapphire Glass on LCD only at MUCH greater expense - I wonder how much more it's gonna cost. So far it seems that you can only get this feature if you also fork out extra money for the higher priced warranty package. At that much extra I would be inclined to simply get a piece of perspex cut to size and affix it to the LCD for protection.
  
• Shutter 1/4000 - for some considerable time Leica were touting the fact that the S2 is akin to a standard high-end 35mm in size and portability (although they now seem to be changing their tune a little and are making more noises about it's similarities to medium format), if that is so then the cam lends itself to use outdoors in bright light. I would therefore have expected a highter top shutter speed of 1/8000 to compete with the top cams Canon and Nikon have to offer. But to be fair to Leica perhaps there is a technical reason for not providing a 1/8000 shutter speed; perhaps because the shutter is much larger and has further to travel than that on a 35mm cam it can't be done easily.
  
• Flash sync: 1/125 (and requires in-lens leaf shutter to get to just 1/500 secs) - wholly unimpressive. But again, to be fair to Leica perhaps this slowness is due to the much larger shutter that has to be moved accross the sensor.
  
• 1.5fps - I appreciate that at this frame rate and moving 14 bit images the camera is moving an impressive amount of data, but I still feel they should have tried harder and gone for 2 fps to make the camera really impressive.
  
• Exposure Metering - only 5 fields in so called Mult-Field metering - in this day and age, this is simply not good enough; a joke really
  
• Central crosshair AF sensor - so, a camera with a shallow depth of field, that is marketed as being light and portable and brought to market in the 21st century and REQUIRES you to engage in the less than optimal "focus and recompose" procedure. Hmmm, really really unimpressive
  
• Diopter: -3 to +1 - Not that great really, especially when you consider that the Panasonic G1 manages -4 to +4
  
• Warranty - Plain rubbish. What they provide as the Premium Package should in fact be the bare minimum warranty. If this camera is as robust and well made as they claim why on earth don't they back that claim with a generous warranty, a mere 12months warranty tells me that they aren't too confident about their own product.
  

If this camera had arrived on the market 3 years ago, or perhaps 2 years ago even, then it would be an exciting product. But in the current market, where one get compact 20+ Mpixel cams from Canon and Sony, which will soon be followed by cameras in the 30 Mpixel region, I really don't see how this boring spec is gonna cope.

 

I know some will argue that what matters is the image quality/results, but like a car where what really matters is the result (getting to your destination) one is also concerned about how one arrives at the result e.g. air con, ABS brakes, leather seats etc etc (read: nice LCD, good frame rate, excellent AF module etc etc). And apologists for Leica will no doubt compare the cam favourably with some medium format offerings; well, that isn't good enough really because this cam is supposed to be something new, exciting and modern, a kinda hybrid medium format-35mm cam, so it should do a great deal better (not merely equal, or scrape past) on the spec sheet than medium format.

 

However, having said all that, there is definitely something about the cam that draws one's attention; it just looks so damn gorgeous.

 

Regards,

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[stunsworth]

So have you ordered one?

[tgray]

Not trying to defend the S2, but to be fair...

 

- flash sync speed - yes, it's slower because it's a bigger format. The bigger the format, the larger the distance the shutters have to travel, which limits top sync speed. Probably why a lot of medium format cameras have leaf shutters. The S2 gives you a usable sync speed with its focal plane shutter, gives you a decent top shutter speed of 1/4000 (hard to do with leaf shutters), and gives you high sync speeds with the CS lenses.

 

- sapphire glass - sounds like overkill to me. BUT, sapphire glass is expensive. I know in vacuum windows, it drives the price up significantly over quartz/BK7 windows. I looked it up on Edmunds Optics the other day. A 1" diameter blank costs $65, while a 3" costs $550. Clearly, it's not a $5 part. Probably doesn't cost them what price differential either, but you are getting an extended warranty, pro service, and a free shutter replacement for that price.

[pascal_meheut]

Looks like a guy who want a Canon/Nikon DSLR to me and did not noticed that the S2 is not a D700/5D competitor.

 

And confuses modern engineering with "long list of useless features to impress the guys who write in dpreview forums and the journalists too lazy to do anything else than copying/pasting the specs".

[carstenw]

Wow, I read three lines of that post before invoking the ignore list, a new record. I still find it hard to believe that people routinely mistake their own opinion for wisdom. This was the bit of elegantly phrased wisdom past which I did not consider it worth the read: "No LiveView - regarded by many an old fart as just a gimmick". Please, opinions are like sphincters, everyone has one. There are plenty of valid opposing viewpoints in this world.

[aesop]

...well, that's 2.5 minutes of my life I won't be getting back - shouldn't have bothered . Oh, erm, welcome to the forum, plevyadophy.

 

.

[pascal_meheut]

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This was the bit of elegantly phrased wisdom past which I did not consider it worth the read: "No LiveView - regarded by many an old fart as just a gimmick".

 

This is the marvelous world of digital photography seen by pixel-peepers: if a body does not a a functionality which didn't exist 2 years ago, it cannot be used and whoever thinks the contrary is an obsolete old fart

 

Of course, reading LFI articles about the S2 design would answer a lot of the objections made by our new friend here, but why bother?

Easier to post something long and useless than to get pertinent informations.

[georg]

Most "sins" show a lack of fundamental technological understanding, just to clear up some of them for other readers:

 

- The 6µm-Kodak-CCD is a state-of-the-art sensor. CCDs are used for max. IQ - not convenience, cheap production, speed or gimmicks. This CCD has propably the highest fill-rate (amount of light-sensitive surface) ever available and this is fundamental for real IQ.

 

- As far as I know, the Multi-field-metering is derived from the R8 (which has 6 fields!?) and this one works GREAT. It has a different working principle than the usual matrix-metering from C/N and it's also the most sensitive metering available.

 

- Warranty is basically business standard, just like C/N/H or M...

 

I don't want to waste too much time, either...

[mooky]

Nit-pic, nit-pic, nit-pic....... There, 35 seconds!!!

[Jamie Roberts]

Ahh the end of the Dog Days!

 

The trolls and morons are out in full on the forum. Some saying the m8 is a glorified Lomo; some saying the S2 should have a Canon CMOS sensor (!!) and live view (which is wholly unnecessary when you're tethered!!)

 

It'll be a relief when the M9 gets here and we can discuss how it's not as good as the latest Nikon

[R10dreamer]

This guy came in, gave his viewpoint, stated at the end that he still liked the S2 and most of you just rip him and call him a troll or some other name. What's up with that? If you don't agree with him site your reasons. He didn't come across as rude to me. Just expressing his thoughts.

 

And NO, I don't know him but would like a little more civil response to his points.

 

Jesus, sometimes this place is like high school where everyone is trying to protect their pecking order.

[AlanG]

Ahh the end of the Dog Days!

 

The trolls and morons are out in full on the forum. Some saying the m8 is a glorified Lomo; some saying the S2 should have a Canon CMOS sensor (!!) and live view (which is wholly unnecessary when you're tethered!!)

 

Some MF backs have live view that only works when you are tethered. Consider a studio still life photographer trying to get very accurate plane of focus adjustment. (This is often hard to do on a ground glass.) Or using live view to a monitor so that you can arrange the items on the set or adjust the lighting (not strobes) without going back to the camera. (Especially if the camera is in an unusual location like high up directly above the subject.)

 

A lot of times I have to shoot interiors that are so tight that I can't look through the camera. (The camera may be pushed up against a wall.) Now I can shot a series of images tethered to the computer and move the camera a bit via trial and error until I get it aimed and focused the way I want, or I can use live view to the computer and do it much faster.

 

As for Leica service and dealer support, this all remains to be seen. Whereas a Phase One dealer is coming to my office this Thursday to personally demonstrate a Phase P65+ system to me even though I told him I didn't think I was a very likely buyer at this time. Who knows, maybe it will blow me away.

[plevyadophy]

So have you ordered one?

 

Well, I was super excited when this cam was first announced but now, having seen the specs, I will wait to see what the Mk II model has to offer.

 

Regards,

[ccc yyy]

This guy came in, gave his viewpoint, stated at the end that he still liked the S2 and most of you just rip him and call him a troll or some other name. What's up with that? If you don't agree with him site your reasons. He didn't come across as rude to me. Just expressing his thoughts.

 

And NO, I don't know him but would like a little more civil response to his points.

 

Jesus, sometimes this place is like high school where everyone is trying to protect their pecking order.

 

+1

[Jamie Roberts]

This guy came in, gave his viewpoint, stated at the end that he still liked the S2 and most of you just rip him and call him a troll or some other name. What's up with that? If you don't agree with him site your reasons. He didn't come across as rude to me. Just expressing his thoughts.

 

And NO, I don't know him but would like a little more civil response to his points.

 

Jesus, sometimes this place is like high school where everyone is trying to protect their pecking order.

 

You know what--you're right.

 

I won't retract what I said, 'cos I'm in a foul mood today and some people (not the OP) on the forum have made it worse. But that's *my* fault and my stuff to deal with...

 

But honestly, you would think--wouldn't you?--that someone offering an opinion on a medium format camera would at least do their homework, right?

 

A little bit maybe?

 

OK--so here goes:

 

 

• Kodak CCD - Not exactly known for making ground breaking sensors, and the sensor should have been CMOS so as to provide LiveView
  Actually it's the opposite: Kodak's professional sensors are well-known for being state-of-the-art, and have been in many of the highest end imagers in the world, including Phase and others. The DMR's small size pro Kodak chip still kicks the stuff out of my D3 sensor for colour, clarity, contrast and DR at ISOs under 800. The M8's is no slouch either. In any case, they are noticably better than CMOS chips overall. And when you're shooting tethered, with an art director standing by, why would you need live-view again?
  
• No LiveView - regarded by many an old fart as just a gimmick, but in fact it is extremely useful for work with tilt-and-shift lenses (see the review on this site of the Canon's new 24mm T & S lens) and, if my memory serves me correctly, Leica have a T & S lens as part of the S System roadmap
  Ok, I'm not an old fart, but it's still a gimmick, even for TS. Especially for serious shooters, who are likely to be shooting tethered anyway.
  
• LCD 460,000 dots - pretty rubbish really for a premium product. Ok... but probably good enough to confirm exposure and focus, right? In which case it's functional. Again, I suspect tethered is the primary use case for "preview" here.
  
• Sapphire Glass on LCD only at MUCH greater expense - I wonder how much more it's gonna cost. So far it seems that you can only get this feature if you also fork out extra money for the higher priced warranty package. At that much extra I would be inclined to simply get a piece of perspex cut to size and affix it to the LCD for protection.
  Ok. You only get it with the warranty package, so perspex it is for you!
  
• Shutter 1/4000 - for some considerable time Leica were touting the fact that the S2 is akin to a standard high-end 35mm in size and portability (although they now seem to be changing their tune a little and are making more noises about it's similarities to medium format), if that is so then the cam lends itself to use outdoors in bright light. I would therefore have expected a highter top shutter speed of 1/8000 to compete with the top cams Canon and Nikon have to offer. But to be fair to Leica perhaps there is a technical reason for not providing a 1/8000 shutter speed; perhaps because the shutter is much larger and has further to travel than that on a 35mm cam it can't be done easily.
  It may sound inconvenient, but just stop down the shutter a stop; use a neutral density filter, or close the aperture a stop. 1/4000s is plenty fast for controlled light situations (not many people go street shooting with a MF camera--even an event is relatively controlled, too).
  
• Flash sync: 1/125 (and requires in-lens leaf shutter to get to just 1/500 secs) - wholly unimpressive.
  Again, for the purpose (controlled light), it's more than completely satisfactory and better than any dSLR on the planet without resorting to some multiple flash HSS stuff where you lose light output.
  
• 1.5fps - I appreciate that at this frame rate and moving 14 bit images the camera is moving an impressive amount of data, but I still feel they should have tried harder and gone for 2 fps to make the camera really impressive.
  First, IIRC you mean 16 bit images (not 14 bit) and they're about 100Mb RAW files, essentially. No other camera on the planet moves that much data as quickly (Ok, maybe some of the Phase backs). It's really impressive as it is; I'm sure if they could have reasonably gotten an extra half frame per second they would have; but there's always a tech trade-off when you make these things. The S3 will be faster We're also not shooting sports here, man (not to mention the fact that 99% of the people I've seen with faster than 1fps not pro sports shooters very rarely need it)
  
• Exposure Metering - only 5 fields in so called Mult-Field metering - in this day and age, this is simply not good enough; a joke really
  Actually, it's only a joke if you don't know how to meter manually, which most pros at this level will
  
• Central crosshair AF sensor - so, a camera with a shallow depth of field, that is marketed as being light and portable and brought to market in the 21st century and REQUIRES you to engage in the less than optimal "focus and recompose" procedure. Hmmm, really really unimpressive
  No, really not. Look--no-one using this camera is going to be shooting cross-field sports-like movement with absolute tracking wide open on the lens! High quality AF in this space is for focus accuracy, not tracking ability. The amount of focus shift with a recompose (at typical apertures) is not going to affect anything.
  
• Diopter: -3 to +1 - Not that great really, especially when you consider that the Panasonic G1 manages -4 to +4
  Yes, it's a drag if you need corrective lenses. Did I mention tethered shooting?
  
• Warranty - Plain rubbish.
  In your opinion. MF backs often have many financial options (for pros) that consumers would find unacceptible. But if this is what it takes for Leica to fully support the S2, then good for them for breaking it into levels of service that you pay for (or do not pay for) as the case may be.
  

 

Is that better, R10?

[plevyadophy]

Ahh the end of the Dog Days!

 

The trolls and morons are out in full on the forum. Some saying the m8 is a glorified Lomo; some saying the S2 should have a Canon CMOS sensor (!!) and live view (which is wholly unnecessary when you're tethered!!)

 

It'll be a relief when the M9 gets here and we can discuss how it's not as good as the latest Nikon

 

Firstly, yes if one wants to be nerd-like, CCD sensors do provide better image quality but the difference when compared to modern CMOS sensors is so miniscule that I doubt many, if any, an art director or stock agency will notice the difference.

 

Secondly, as to your remark regarding tethered shooting. Therein lies the problem. You are talking of tethered shooting, which is fine if you WANT to shoot that way but in the 21st century you shouldn't HAVE TO. Added to that is the fact that Leica have clearly made reference to the camara's 35mm-like format, so they ought to have made it a little more 35mm-like and provided live view on the cam body (and I don't suppose many an architectural photographer shooting outdoors is gonna prefer being tethered to a laptop when it would be more convenient to have the live view feature on the camera body).

 

I also suspect that the, to put it mildly, overly conservative Leica have realised that they have to wake up to the 21st century because, if my memory is correct, they have said that they are working on live view (or at least are thinking about it and haven't ruled it out).

 

And the much anticipated M9 may not be as good as the latest Nikon it just depends on what criteria one is using to make the assessment.

 

Regards,

 

P.S.

 

Why is it that for far too many Leica users, anyone who doesn't pay homage to the Leica deity is considered a troll.

[R10dreamer]

Yes, except I believe Leica has stated that they will be 75 mg files.

 

But you still deserve a clap-clap and a high 5 for that.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped} Or using live view to a monitor so that you can arrange the items on the set or adjust the lighting (not strobes) without going back to the camera. (Especially if the camera is in an unusual location like high up directly above the subject.)

 

Alan, you don't need a live view if you're tethered. Yes, it's a wee bit more convenient perhaps, but the difference between taking a shot on a large monitor and re-arranging and doing it "real time (with focus lag) is minimal in a studio.

 

A lot of times I have to shoot interiors that are so tight that I can't look through the camera. (The camera may be pushed up against a wall.) Now I can shot a series of images tethered to the computer and move the camera a bit via trial and error until I get it aimed and focused the way I want, or I can use live view to the computer and do it much faster.

But the much faster here is only a matter of seconds. I don't believe the time vs money benefit here is real. It's hardly trial and error if you can see the images immediately anyway... they don't need to be fluid (IMO and experience--YMMV).

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jamie Roberts]

Firstly, yes if one wants to be nerd-like, CCD sensors do provide better image quality but the difference when compared to modern CMOS sensors is so miniscule that I doubt many, if any, an art director or stock agency will notice the difference.

It's not nerd like in the slightest. Heck, my wedding customers (let alone the graphic designers and directors I've worked with) *do* notice the difference! If they didn't my life would be easier I don't do stock, so I can't comment, except that the review of the M8 by Getty editors was impressive. They seemed to have noticed image quality and the CCD:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/93604-leica-m8-approved-professional-picture-submissions.html

 

Secondly, as to your remark regarding tethered shooting. Therein lies the problem. You are talking of tethered shooting, which is fine if you WANT to shoot that way but in the 21st century you shouldn't HAVE TO. Added to that is the fact that Leica have clearly made reference to the camara's 35mm-like format, so they ought to have made it a little more 35mm-like and provided live view on the cam body (and I don't suppose many an architectural photographer shooting outdoors is gonna prefer being tethered to a laptop when it would be more convenient to have the live view feature on the camera body).

Except architectural (exterior) cameras don't need live view, not even for T/S (which they can see anyway in review or TTL!). Interior space is different, but with controlled lighting comes a lot of other stuff too.

 

I also suspect that the, to put it mildly, overly conservative Leica have realised that they have to wake up to the 21st century because, if my memory is correct, they have said that they are working on live view (or at least are thinking about it and haven't ruled it out).

 

It won't surprise me if it shows up sometime. I doubt its usefulness though (except as a video output to make "tethering" computerless maybe).

 

{snipped}And the much anticipated M9 may not be as good as the latest Nikon it just depends on what criteria one is using to make the assessment.

 

Why is it that for far too many Leica users, anyone who doesn't pay homage to the Leica deity is considered a troll.

 

You are correct, and I should apologize to you. I've just seen some crazy stuff here lately and I'm in a bad mood today for reasons completely unrelated to the forum. Not typical, I assure you, and you didn't deserve it

[rosuna]

Two interesting articles by Joseph Holmes on medium format problems... mostly due to "flexibility":

 

Joseph Holmes - News: Medium Format Problems

 

Joseph Holmes - News: Medium Format Methods for Sharpness

 

I think "closed" systems is the present (and future). Hasselblad and Leica know it, and Phase One knows it too (they have bought Mamiya and Leaf).