eronald Posted November 15, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 15, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Let's all send the following message or similar to Leica (cs@leica-camera.com) -------- Sirs, I had confidence in Leica and preordered and subsequently received an M8 camera which is not fully functional. You have been paid, therefore I am entitled to a camera that is functional. Please deliver a camera that functions as as expected, with no IR problems, no banding and no need to purchase and employ additional filters. Yours XXX, owner of M8, serial XXXXX -------- Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 15, 2006 Posted November 15, 2006 Hi eronald, Take a look here Leica Write In campaign: No filters please, just fix it !. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
erl Posted November 16, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 16, 2006 Edmund, when you pre-ordered, you gambled! That has its risks which you must wear. Leica do not have a magic wand or fairy godmother to "make it all better". However, they are working very hard to 'get it right', or as good as possible. Anything beyond 'possible' is commonly known as impossible. In which case you are blowing bubbles, along with others. Remember, the 'possible' will take time despite your impatience (and mine). Experience has taught me that patience has a better reward than otherwise. Cheers, Erl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted November 16, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 16, 2006 Edmund, If you are looking on the site, you have seen that Leica has made straightforward statements that a fix is underway. Stop flaming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devils-advocate Posted November 16, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 16, 2006 I'm pretty sure Leica has gotten the message by now. I suspect that there are scores of empty taverns and unsatisfied housewives in Solms at the moment.....and will continue to be until this is fixed (then the hangings can begin ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted November 16, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 16, 2006 Edmund, when you pre-ordered, you gambled! That has its risks which you must wear. Erl I totally disagree with you. Because, where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not? People are not complaining that the M8 makes bad pictures, like very noisy, or with bad definition. That's part of the risks of buying any digital camera. It's good or it's mediocre or it's downright bad. Here, we' re talking about a camera which does not do one of the basic task expected from it, ie render blacks more or less black under certain circumstances. Even the worst $100 P&S renders blacks black. What would you say if, for instance, the rangefinder was all wrong and you couldn't focus? I don't think you would accept that as part of a "gamble". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucek Posted November 16, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 16, 2006 What would you say if, for instance, the rangefinder was all wrong and you couldn't focus? I don't think you would accept that as part of a "gamble". R-D1 owners have been living with that for years... :-( Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj37 Posted November 16, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 16, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) R-D1 owners have been living with that for years... Well, to be fair, if you noticed an RF problem with your still-under-warranty R-D 1, Epson's usual response was to take it back, no questions asked, and give you another one. I know of one guy who went through four until he got a good one. That may not say much for Epson's, or Cosina's, initial quality control, but at least they were trying to deal with the problem, rather than saying (for example) "You have to use only Cosina lenses and attach this special focus-shifting filter to the front of each of them." Even if you didn't want to play Epson roulette, there were (and are) independent technicians who could do a complete rangefinder calibration and tuneup on the R-D 1 for about a hundred bucks. And if my own experience is any guide, once fixed they tend to stay fixed. I'm guessing it will take a bit more effort than that for Leica to get the M8 out of the woods... ... I suppose it really doesn't matter, though, as there seems to be a random statistical spread of opinions on this issue that's independent of any actual knowledge. Out at one end of the bell curve are the people who already have cancelled their orders and/or sent back their M8s and will never again touch a digital camera that doesn't say "Canon" on it. At the other end are people who, even if Leica's announced solution turns out to require them to send in their left testicle for DNA analysis, will happily do so. And in the middle are all the rest of us wondering how it's all going to turn out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted November 16, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 16, 2006 I totally disagree with you. Because, where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not? People are not complaining that the M8 makes bad pictures, like very noisy, or with bad definition. That's part of the risks of buying any digital camera. It's good or it's mediocre or it's downright bad. Here, we' re talking about a camera which does not do one of the basic task expected from it, ie render blacks more or less black under certain circumstances. Even the worst $100 P&S renders blacks black. What would you say if, for instance, the rangefinder was all wrong and you couldn't focus? I don't think you would accept that as part of a "gamble". Well Hammam, we might have to agree to disagree on this point. ie. the point of pre-ordering being a gamble. What else ca it be? There is nothing but a crystal ball to show the future, if you trust it. That is gambling in my book. WRT to post sales service/support, I don't think anyone has a better track record than Leica, and they have given an undertaking to correct what is possible. As this M8 is a first for Leica, it is to be expected to perform like a beta with follow up fixes or whatever. History supports this type of event, especially in the digital world. Something about "fools rushing in....." comes to mind. Other may call it brave to be the 1st M8 owner. It is probably both. Cheers, Erl P.S. I am not trying to be an apologist for Leica. In fact my livelyhood is in jeopardy over this affair, so I too am anxious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_tanaka Posted November 16, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 16, 2006 Let's all send the following message or similar to Leica (cs@leica-camera.com)-------- Sirs, I had confidence in Leica and preordered and subsequently received an M8 camera which is not fully functional. You have been paid, therefore I am entitled to a camera that is functional. Please deliver a camera that functions as as expected, with no IR problems, no banding and no need to purchase and employ additional filters. Yours XXX, owner of M8, serial XXXXX -------- Edmund The only votes that count to a manufacturer are cast with wallets, not postage stamps or email messages. This is such a disappointment all around. All of the management and financial turmoil at Leica in recent years were bound to take a stiff toll on this key project. I resisted several attacks of "gottahaveitfirstitis" mainly due to my pessimism on this basis. But I don't feel smug at all. I feel the pain of the early buyers now potentially facing a recall to affect a kludgy partial remedy and facing the need to slap filters in front of those wonderful Leica lenses. I also fear that the cost of this disaster to Leica, in reputation as well as capital, may put an early end to its (direct) participation in digital photography. Hoping for the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 16, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 16, 2006 The only votes that count to a manufacturer are cast with wallets, not postage stamps or email messages. This is such a disappointment all around. All of the management and financial turmoil at Leica in recent years were bound to take a stiff toll on this key project. I resisted several attacks of "gottahaveitfirstitis" mainly due to my pessimism on this basis. But I don't feel smug at all. I feel the pain of the early buyers now potentially facing a recall to affect a kludgy partial remedy and facing the need to slap filters in front of those wonderful Leica lenses. I also fear that the cost of this disaster to Leica, in reputation as well as capital, may put an early end to its (direct) participation in digital photography. Hoping for the best. Ken--good to see you here. The M8 will not end Leica's pariticipation. It's a brilliant camera by any measure. They will fix the sensor streaking, which is fantastic. Edmund is perfectly right, though. But from my own experiments I believe more and more that any color imbalance / magenta-ness can be fixed without filters and in SW, so they should do that, please, right away. See, for me now it's not a matter of "if they can do it" They can with the right people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronaldh Posted November 16, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 16, 2006 Ken--good to see you here. The M8 will not end Leica's pariticipation. It's a brilliant camera by any measure. They will fix the sensor streaking, which is fantastic. Edmund is perfectly right, though. But from my own experiments I believe more and more that any color imbalance / magenta-ness can be fixed without filters and in SW, so they should do that, please, right away. See, for me now it's not a matter of "if they can do it" They can with the right people. I very much hope so. The camera is unusable in many conditions at present but will be superb if the issues can be fixed. I am not prepared to put filters on all of my (7) lenses for two main reasons. First because I would not be prepared to have to pay for them as a matter of principle, but remembering the rangefinder patch problem I doubt whether Leica would provide these foc. The second and more important is that such a solution would be a bodge and a temporary fix; Leica would then have to apply all its efforts in finding a permanent solution which may mean a new model; the "investment" in an M8 will surely plummet when that is released. I anxiously look forward to Leica's next statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexr Posted November 16, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 16, 2006 Those who pre-ordered are not fools nor gamblers. We knew Leica had been working on this for years. During this time we waited patiently and did not put any pressure on them. In a way the more time went by, the more we felt confident of the result (leica are taking their time to give us another superlative tool, we felt). We assumed, therefore, that when THEY decided to put it out, it would be ok to use. Not perfect, as we never expected, for ex., the same low iso performance of Canon. But usable, yes. Edmond's comment are made calmly and are reasonable. I cannot understand how anyone could call him a flamer. The problem is that management/ownership changes translate in company philosophy changes. The name is the same, but Leica is possibly a different company now. What we expected of them in the past, we maybe cannot expect now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xxl-user Posted November 16, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 16, 2006 The M8 will not end Leica's pariticipation. It's a brilliant camera by any measure. Three or four bugs and you still think that??? What would you say when a professional camera from Canon or Nikon comes on the market with so much errors??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 16, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 16, 2006 Three or four bugs and you still think that??? What would you say when a professional camera from Canon or Nikon comes on the market with so much errors??? Heh. Yes... I would say that, as a pro who has used a lot of Canon and Nikons. In another thread here, I wrote about all the bugs that were in the 1d2 and 1ds2 when they came out (and I had both of those). The Canon 1ds2 scrambled frames, for heaven's sake! And the 5D still bands in the shadows if you turn on continuous autofocus! So this is, I think, a very recoverable situation. Can they fix it? Yes. Will they? Yes. Should they have released the camera with these bugs? Well, you know the answer to that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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