roguewave Posted August 12, 2009 Share #1 Posted August 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) There's quite a heated conversation on the DPI forum regarding the S2. Death & mourning are the general sentiments there. Here's my post: "I'm curious about one thing. Has anyone on this forum actually used this camera? If so, do they have anything of substance to discuss & display in regards to the images it renders. I live in NYC and I'm on the street almost everyday taking images. Although the financial sector appears to have liquefied like molten lava, the average employee at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Barclays (Lehman Bros) and several dozen other hedge funds, private equity & other little empires will soon receive an average BONUS OF 700K - 500K, shortly. They already own several homes, pied-a-tiers, yachts.... Conspicuous consumption is their stock in trade. On weekends some of the Quant guys (the people that design the trading programs & make millions in BASE salary) come to Washington Square Park with wads of $100 bills to play chess & more importantly to BET on other players. There is a world of MONOPOLY Money that many don't really understand. Money is no object. These same folks often are lugging 25-40K worth of MF Hassy or M8.2 with 5 new Summiluxs around in a canvas sling bag. I'm talking throwaway style. The Leica brand has lasted a long time. It, like Cartier, Brendel & just a few others still means the Pinnacle. There is no second, if only in cache. Wherever I go, on any street, uptown, downtown, in the furthest reaches of Harlem, the Bronx, Bed-Sty, EVERYONE knows what Leica is & WANTS one. The fact that it’s out of reach is the reason it will sell. Many of the owners of current Leica gear can’t use them & don’t know how. They don’t care about that. It is often an heirloom & will remain so, like a Rolex. If the S2 provides the kind of quality that Vanity Fair demands, it has a future. It may not be yours or mine but one thing still sells and always will. Those that can afford the best buy it." Hope no one knows where I live! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 Hi roguewave, Take a look here My post on the GetDPI forum re: S2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 12, 2009 Share #2 Posted August 12, 2009 No Ben I don't think you get it coming from a Pro's perspective we are not entirely impressed as you maybe. My post to this I have played with it at PMA. Styling wise it is very nice. Lenses are big and heavy which is typical of Leica DSLR lenses like the R only bigger. And yes the Leica will always sell to the wear the jewelry on their sleeve crowd but the S2 is supposedly aimed at the Pro market which is more a function over form crowd. Instead of the form over function crowd. Obviously sometimes those lines are blurred. We also have to remember there is no M or R system starting at these levels of price either. Slinging a 25k M or R system around ones neck is no big deal and have done it many times even in the streets of NY but we are not talking that price level either this is S system at about 50k slinging around ones neck and not really a toy but a nice size bulky bag which I do daily with my MF system but I do have some purpose other than jetting from Battery park to Bergdoff's. Hopefully I am shooting for real money instead. LOL But I agree some will buy the best but who is saying this is actually it. Still a question mark and frankly it is not the best in MF photography at least in many eye's. This reminds me of the other night taking my 12 year old to basketball tryouts and looking over my shoulder I see two NBA star players in there sneakers and gym shorts very unimposing until you walked outside and see the Rolls and the 300k Mercedes parked next to each other. Now did they need to drive those cars to a youth basketball tryout in a public school. No but maybe they don't have a Chevy either but any case it's there jewelry and who really gives a crap. It did not impress one parent their. I will add many shooters are not impressed by what others may think is the best , we buy with needs in mind as to what will get the job done and get a ROI on our investment. If many can spend 30k on a system instead of 60k on a system that bears very little IQ difference than 9 times out of 10 the business person will go with the lower price to gain the ROI on his investment. There is a big difference between need and want and many Pro's are working on what they really need basis and could give a rats arch on some celebrity walking around with a Leica and having what they think is jewelry on there arm. These are tools and there sole purpose is to get image to sensor and nothing else matters __________________ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 12, 2009 Share #3 Posted August 12, 2009 Given the extremely low target they've set for themselves, Leica will have no problem at all selling the S2 whether it's good or bad. The negative propaganda they've created for themselves is all because they are alienating many more long-time loyal customer in exchange to make 1000 individuals (or less) happy. I have a spot in 3 Time Square but don't go there often these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 12, 2009 Share #4 Posted August 12, 2009 The negative propaganda they've created for themselves is all because they are alienating many more long-time loyal customer in exchange to make 1000 individuals (or less) happy. Oh, please... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted August 12, 2009 Share #5 Posted August 12, 2009 I am a firm believer that the S2 will sink or swim on one critical issue: its merits. If the Leica S2 is as effective and revolutionary for that niche, then it will be the commercial success that the company is praying for. If it is truly mobile, then there is a good chance that the S2 will gain acceptance by some or perhaps many of the dlsr crowd. And added bonus! We should hope that these circumstances occur for, to put it bluntly, Leica has put its longterm fiscal health & hence future into this MF gamble... if they lose... WE as a group of M & R veterans lose as well...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwfreund Posted August 13, 2009 Share #6 Posted August 13, 2009 Oh I can make a decision all right. My decision is to not line up for one of the first shipments. I want to see how it shakes out, see how the system grows, then find one I can shoot for a little while. I also want to see if Leica has really turned around its service reputation. After then, it really comes down to can it replace my MF kit or not and at what cost/benefit. Initial impression is I am concerned about losing the shift capabilities of my Cambo WRS-1000 or Can it replace my dslr kit which is also too big and heavy but I can live with it. So, yes I can make at least one decision right now, to wait and watch. -bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted August 13, 2009 Share #7 Posted August 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) For what it's worth; I would buy an S2 for my outdoor/scenic/design work. I have some long term projects that an S2 camera would be perfect for. Again, I'm not a money man, and although I am not pleased with the fate of the R10 (I also don't believe Leica had the intention of one instead of the other) I believe that the S2 will be a fine camera. I can believe that there are plenty of people that will buy them, just to show it off. That doesn't make the camera a bad product, it just illustrates that people with money will spend it on things for status, Leica won't live or die on the S2. It's a big wad of cash, but I don't think the lenses are unreasonable at all. I second guessed Leica's early decision to pass on auto-focus and really didn't care for the early R series cameras, even though they were serviceable - especially after using (I still do) the wonderful 'Flexes. It reminds me of a Pentax 67 which I use - eventually I'll probably buy one, but not for a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 13, 2009 Share #8 Posted August 13, 2009 Not quite sure why this thread / discussion is being brought to a "second front", but anyway I'm still at a loss as to how people can make an evaluation on a product without any real substantive knowledge about it. Me too. Let's see the results it produces, rather than speculate that it won't deliver the goods. And as for Leica alienating their customer base... most Leica customers will neither know nor care that an S2 is on the way, or what it is or does. I would suggest that most Leica customers don't hang around on the internet perpetually waiting for the "next big thing". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spylaw4 Posted August 13, 2009 Share #9 Posted August 13, 2009 " I'm still at a loss as to how people can make an evaluation on a product without any real substantive knowledge about it. 1. AFAIK no-one has yet seriously played with a production version, and if they have they're under NDA and not telling. So we don't have sufficient information to make informed comment. 2. There may well be minor glitches etc. with the first batch (it is a very complex product after all) but that does not make it fatally flawed. Having learnt from the M8, and for such a premium product Leica will almost certainly correct these very quickly under warranty. I think we can take it that they are very aware of the need to perform. 3. It matters not a hoot who buys it and for what reason - a collector, a jewellery show-off, a well-heeled know-nothing amateur, a serious amateur, a professional. As long as it sells Leica will be happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted August 13, 2009 Share #10 Posted August 13, 2009 And as for Leica alienating their customer base... most Leica customers will neither know nor care that an S2 is on the way, or what it is or does. I would suggest that most Leica customers don't hang around on the internet perpetually waiting for the "next big thing". In my opinion, you don't have to hang around internet forums to feel alienated by Leica. As a user of a lot of splendid Leica R glass I was promised an R10 at Photokina 2008, remember? I was there to see the display case... Now they tell me, go buy yourself something else. OK, I will, but not an S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted August 14, 2009 Share #11 Posted August 14, 2009 How will seeing the IQ change the basic argument? I have had every Leica M and R body made since the first SL(with the external meter) and never had one that didn t have best in class IQ. Will it be better than any other DSLR- yes ..all the current MF offerings are better and you can see it easily . Will it be any better than the 60MP offerings from Hasselblad or PhaseOne? Someone else would have to tell me as its beyond what I will be able to identify. My point being the IQ will be fabulous ..it has to be. I don t doubt this for a minute. Form and handling...smaller than a pro DSLR (only slightly if you are using the grip)..larger heavier lenses . Leica s have always been a little different (not better or worse than other SLR) but certainly better than the MF bodies . A different class of camera with handling more like a DSLR. Add in weather sealing and its pretty easy to see how this could be an important point of differentiation. Support and backup ....highly questionable based on past experience and the magnitude of the challenge. It doesn t appear even reasonable to expect Leica to match the professional support systems from hasselblad or phase for some time. Would be hard to bet the bank on an S2 for professional usage until its proven. Product availability . Never have I seen Leica with good product availability on new items. You can bet that building a full kit will be a challenge in itself. This will affect how quickly the product is adopted by professionals. But prices we now know for sure ....so its reasonable to start considering the value proposition on a personal level. Unfortunately to understand the possible benefits will most likely take some considerable time for Leica to both deliver and to establish solid evidence of performance. A year from now the evidence will be in and either Leica will have established a track record that supports a premium price or they won t . But I doubt that IQ will be the issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted August 14, 2009 Share #12 Posted August 14, 2009 So the real main question here is: Will the S System be able to stand up against top MF systems from Phase and Hasselblad - IQ wise, quality wise, price wise and support wise ???? I tell you one thing - I would not mind to buy into the S System immediately if 1) I would be convinced that Leica is really behind it and supprting it for at least the next 10 years 2) I could see an S3 and S4 (upcoming models) on the horizon - even in 5 - 8 years 3) I could have a TS solution which is satisfying enough for me and coming close to a tech camera + digiback solution like Cambo WRS with P45+ and Schneider 35mm 4) There would be support of this system in C1Pro or Lightroom. I would expect much easier handling, carrying etc of this camera system compared to existing MF systems. And I would expect some 60-80MP in one of the coming S3 or S4s .... It is as simple, but actually I doubt that most of this (or even only some minor parts of this list) will be fulfilled PS: BTW - IQ wise I have no doubts that the S System will be the absolute top of all existing systems, or at least at same level - this is not the question! The real questions are listed above!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguewave Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted August 14, 2009 Rodger, your going to need a custom made vest to carry all that gear. Get your tailor started! Been enjoying your prodigious output from your site. Will you by stopping by David's in the next week? If so, maybe I can buy a new set of track shoes & try to keep up with you. All the best, Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted August 14, 2009 Share #14 Posted August 14, 2009 I wonder how Ben has time to be an artist, a critic, and a researcher on who's an artist, and still is able to post a thousand times a month here. He must have help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMac Posted August 14, 2009 Share #15 Posted August 14, 2009 Well put How will seeing the IQ change the basic argument? I have had every Leica M and R body made since the first SL(with the external meter) and never had one that didn t have best in class IQ. Will it be better than any other DSLR- yes ..all the current MF offerings are better and you can see it easily . Will it be any better than the 60MP offerings from Hasselblad or PhaseOne? Someone else would have to tell me as its beyond what I will be able to identify. My point being the IQ will be fabulous ..it has to be. I don t doubt this for a minute. Form and handling...smaller than a pro DSLR (only slightly if you are using the grip)..larger heavier lenses . Leica s have always been a little different (not better or worse than other SLR) but certainly better than the MF bodies . A different class of camera with handling more like a DSLR. Add in weather sealing and its pretty easy to see how this could be an important point of differentiation. Support and backup ....highly questionable based on past experience and the magnitude of the challenge. It doesn t appear even reasonable to expect Leica to match the professional support systems from hasselblad or phase for some time. Would be hard to bet the bank on an S2 for professional usage until its proven. Product availability . Never have I seen Leica with good product availability on new items. You can bet that building a full kit will be a challenge in itself. This will affect how quickly the product is adopted by professionals. But prices we now know for sure ....so its reasonable to start considering the value proposition on a personal level. Unfortunately to understand the possible benefits will most likely take some considerable time for Leica to both deliver and to establish solid evidence of performance. A year from now the evidence will be in and either Leica will have established a track record that supports a premium price or they won t . But I doubt that IQ will be the issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 14, 2009 Share #16 Posted August 14, 2009 This thread has been pruned for obvious reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 14, 2009 Share #17 Posted August 14, 2009 Well, if people will go about the way that some did here, this is what will have to happen, I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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