haribo Posted July 31, 2009 Share #201 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The social interaction in this forum is really funny:D I apologize, but this guys arrogance rubbed me the wrong way. I love my Leica M8 and would be happy to go for the S2. Not because it's a Leica but because of a certain simplicity most Leica cameras have. I am in fact in the market for a MF system but the S2 makes no business sense to me whatsoever. (It has nothing to do with how much it goes for but rather what one gets for the money.) No matter what system I will get into now, I will probably go for the M9 when it comes out. As long as it's a significant improvement and not just a silly sapphire screen or quieter shutter. My only fear is Leica won't be around in a year from now to actually release any new camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2009 Posted July 31, 2009 Hi haribo, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Gentleman Villain Posted July 31, 2009 Share #202 Posted July 31, 2009 No offense, but you seem to be rather full of yourself. A true Leica snob with a new found status symbol.Exclusive my a**. If I want to go for the best there is, I still wouldn't consider the S2 for even a second. I'd go straight for the P65+. no offense...which one are you? A)low level professional B)prosumer C)hobbyist The social interaction in this forum is really funny:D it's a sad reflection on the state of the photographic craft in general Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 31, 2009 Share #203 Posted July 31, 2009 no offense...which one are you? A)low level professional B)prosumer C)hobbyist Guess, you forgot yourself here... D) elitist amateur/collector/know-it-all it's a sad reflection on the state of the photographic craft in general as is your arrogance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted July 31, 2009 Share #204 Posted July 31, 2009 no offense...which one are you? A)low level professional B)prosumer C)hobbyist it's a sad reflection on the state of the photographic craft in general D)jerk and this is to Gentleman Villain. God the internet does seem to bring out the worst in some people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted July 31, 2009 Share #205 Posted July 31, 2009 D)jerk and this is to Gentleman Villain. God the internet does seem to bring out the worst in some people. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a hobbyist, low level professional or amateur.......but those people are not the market for the S2 This is a really simple concept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted July 31, 2009 Share #206 Posted July 31, 2009 excellent post Don't be stunned by victory...if Leica has alienated low level professionals, prosumers and hobbyists with the release of the S2 then that's a good thing. The S2 is supposed to be an exclusive system. Exclusive means "sorry, there isn't room for everybody" Of course, it is the "low level professionals, prosumers and hobbyists" that will keep Leica in business. A business model that alienates any consumers, is probably not the best idea. I wouldn't exactly call it "victory." I'm sure you're familiar with the cliche' "to win the battle, but lose the war." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 31, 2009 Share #207 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can we please keep this thread civil. There really is no need to start having a pop at each other. Any more, and the blue pencil will be coming out, and posts will be deleted without further notice. We are all grown ups, and this thread discusses a grown up camera. With a bit of luck, useful commentary will be being picked up by the powers that be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted July 31, 2009 Share #208 Posted July 31, 2009 Of course, it is the "low level professionals, prosumers and hobbyists" that will keep Leica in business. Your post could very well prove to be 1000% true over time However, those people are still not the target market for the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted July 31, 2009 Share #209 Posted July 31, 2009 We are all grown ups.... . Aren't you assuming? I for one refuse to be a grown up, most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted July 31, 2009 Share #210 Posted July 31, 2009 I'm only one of those shameless amateurs who make nothing from my pictures, if family and friends are interested in my stuff, I normally send them the full res. jpegs and (often) with a 10x17 or bigger printout. In terms of workflow, I would only keep 5 to 10 of a 100 pictures and never feel tired of spending hours if not days working on 2 or 3 of them. -- I think not shameless but just being a photographer. Amateur or Pro be damned, at the end of the day its about photography. I understand that many folks' preferences over ACR/LR because they only want to finish their jobs ASAP but IMO Adobe has never paid enough attention to detail and color rendition, and imho their color profiles are among the worsts in the bunch. -- not a preference really. Some things are worth the time and passion, others are not. If LR saves you the time, why not. I use Raw Developer when I need to tweak but Aperture when I am dealing with 100,000 images in a month's work. RD sucks at management. It won't be difficult for you to find 1000 or even more braindead "leicaphiles" who will take everything with a red dot for granted in each year but it will be an insult to the people who really understand these stuff and can make the product shine (working pros and/or serious amateurs), as well as having a passion in Leica if, 1) the product doesn't stand up to competition 2) they're declined access to the system due to different reasons. -- Unintentional insult I believe but if braindead "Leicaphiles" is the majority of Leica's market, then the S2's features and specs will reflect that. I personally have spent almost 3 years on this board when I first heard about the "R10" back in 2006 and I haven't seen much positive development on either front (R/M) since, now with the S2 came out of the blue I certainly don't want Leica to repeat their mistakes before. -- I hope not too. I hope it won't take as long as 5 years before you see me coming on board - none of the 3 lenses I'm interested in will be available soon (24, 30 shift and 35-90) anyways and I'm not here because I want to nitpick or "socialize". Leica should understand the frustration and angry on the board because people who truly have a space reserved for Leica in their hearts often feel being ignored and let down. The S2 may or may not be my thing but if it is only the 35-90 is on my list. The anger and frustration is very understandable especially if one is addicted to Leica's products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica Insider Posted July 31, 2009 Share #211 Posted July 31, 2009 I apologize, but this guys arrogance rubbed me the wrong way.I love my Leica M8 and would be happy to go for the S2. Not because it's a Leica but because of a certain simplicity most Leica cameras have. I am in fact in the market for a MF system but the S2 makes no business sense to me whatsoever. (It has nothing to do with how much it goes for but rather what one gets for the money.) No matter what system I will get into now, I will probably go for the M9 when it comes out. As long as it's a significant improvement and not just a silly sapphire screen or quieter shutter. My only fear is Leica won't be around in a year from now to actually release any new camera. BTW I really love the LFI piece. I think it is very impressive. Now your postings make sense to me, I was wondering why you seem to bash Gentlemen and me for no apparent reason. And I also want to distance myself from the posts that followed by G_V. That is just not how you should interact. It seems to be very hard to bring people together that chose their tools for very different reasons. It's a matter of fact though that every Leica customer, whether he is a pro or a show-off helps the company to stick around and spend R&D money on the M9 that you are waiting for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted July 31, 2009 Share #212 Posted July 31, 2009 However, those people are still not the target market for the S2. Yes, yes, yes, that is true. But a company probably shouldn't "flip the bird" to an existing customer base in favor of a yet unrealized new one. I know the tenor of this thread is about the price of the S2 body, but this price, coupled with the company's decision to drop the R line (after stating repeatedly that an R10 is on the horizon), for some, is --in effect -- tantamount to the company "flipping them the bird." Basically, Leica is saying "we no longer care about R users." Given your parameters, yes I see your point. But a broader perspective questions the reasonableness of the decisions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 31, 2009 Share #213 Posted July 31, 2009 Your post could very well prove to be 1000% true over time However, those people are still not the target market for the S2. I am in that target group. And as a matter of fact I am about to pull the trigger on an integrated digital MF system, but as of right now it won't be the S2. Something absolutely incredible needs to happen fast to get me to re-consider after yesterday's announcement. A.) It's not much of a system B.) It's completely unproven, system and pro service. As of right now neither of it does even exist. C.) I am not interested in a MF system where I would have to buy a second body just to have a back-up, when I can rent any Hasselblad or Phase DB or whatever is needed on a moments notice. C. As much as I love Leica, I am not interested in paying more money for a low/mid level MF camera just to sport the red dot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted July 31, 2009 Share #214 Posted July 31, 2009 -- I think not shameless but just being a photographer. Amateur or Pro be damned, at the end of the day its about photography. Totally true! Every photographer should appreciate the fact that Leica was willing to build the S2 and bring it to market. Leica took an enormous risk to create an exception tool for a small market that is often neglected in this era of cheap 3rd world labor, fast/food wal-mart consumerist mentality. The S2 is intended to be an exclusive camera system for an extremely discerning and small professional market. Unfortunately, the S2 will not be accessible to all photographers. However, all photographers can appreciate what Leica is doing for the photographic community at large by setting extremely high standards and creating a brand new camera system from the ground up... Will the S2 be a success or not? I don't know and only time will tell. But the simple fact that the S2 was created in the first place is a victory for the photographic craft. Leica should be commended for building a no-compromise professional tool from the ground up.....especially since the current business environment is filled with camera makers that are all too willing to "compromise" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 31, 2009 Share #215 Posted July 31, 2009 The S2 may or may not be my thing but if it is only the 35-90 is on my list. The anger and frustration is very understandable especially if one is addicted to Leica's products. I should have broken them into separate paragraphs, I meant to say that if I buy a S2, it would come with the 24, 30 Shift and a 35-90 which is all that I want. I don't care about the normal, short and mid-telephotos in the S system because for stuff to be done with those I'll stay with my 35mm gears, and the R lenses which I still keep are all within that range. "Frustration/Anger" are about the other aspects of the discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted July 31, 2009 Share #216 Posted July 31, 2009 Now your postings make sense to me, I was wondering why you seem to bash Gentlemen and me for no apparent reason. And I also want to distance myself from the posts that followed by G_V. That is just not how you should interact. That's fine if you want to distance yourself from me... However...I am the market for the S2...which is not true of many posters in this thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted July 31, 2009 Share #217 Posted July 31, 2009 I was thinking about who the market for the S2 might be, I will give it a shot. These are real life scenarios from my experience. 1. Art directors, graphics designers who decide provide one stop shop services of which photography is one of the services. 2. Businesses with multiple divisions needing photography deciding to setup in house services for these divisions. Supermarkets, etc 3. Rich kids setuped by family businesses to provide photography services to family businesses. Pros should be aware that we can be flanked in the short term. I have lost work to all three and believe it or not 1 and 3 can be extremely competent and have the money to buy the best. Some of them may not know that Leica is not the best bet Just the most expensive. All of them want simple solutions. These 3 categories do occur in all economic conditions but it really is very prevalent during crisis times. This shift in business models happened to me a few times. Got quite sick of it. Did not run into any dentists though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 31, 2009 Share #218 Posted July 31, 2009 Totally true! Every photographer should appreciate the fact that Leica was willing to build the S2 and bring it to market. Leica took an enormous risk to create an exception tool for a small market that is often neglected in this era of cheap 3rd world labor, fast/food wal-mart consumerist mentality. The S2 is intended to be an exclusive camera system for an extremely discerning and small professional market. Unfortunately, the S2 will not be accessible to all photographers. However, all photographers can appreciate what Leica is doing for the photographic community at large by setting extremely high standards and creating a brand new camera system from the ground up... Will the S2 be a success or not? I don't know and only time will tell. But the simple fact that the S2 was created in the first place is a victory for the photographic craft. Leica should be commended for building a no-compromise professional tool from the ground up.....especially since the current business environment is filled with camera makers that are all too willing to "compromise" Yes! Very true. Big cheers to Leica. Hip Hip Hooray!!!! You really showed Nikon or Canon how things get done. Kidding aside, I think we all appreciate what Leica has accomplished. But don't you think the entire photographic community would appreciate Leica's feast even more if it in fact would make any (business) sense to buy the S2 and use it???? I believe a lot of photographers would love to use it and do incredible work with it. Like any other camera the S2 is just a tool. An expensive one but nevertheless it is only a tool. Exclusiveness comes with what a photographer is able to do with it, whatever tool he/she chooses. I doubt the S2 is going to make someone a Maplethorpe or Avedon, if that person doesn't have it in himself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica Insider Posted July 31, 2009 Share #219 Posted July 31, 2009 That's fine if you want to distance yourself from me... However...I am the market for the S2...which is not true of many posters in this thread Hey, you and I talk the same language. My point is simply that one can disagree but shouldn't get personal as you did for a while with haribo.... Even though I was tempted to tell a few people off I try not to do it because it just doesn't get you anywhere other than getting a warning from Andy..... I was actually happy to have finally found someone in this forum that understands where I am coming from and your recent post about "compromise" has demonstrated exactly that. Leica has usually failed when they tried to market products that compromised and where not positioned at the very top-end of their market segment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted July 31, 2009 Share #220 Posted July 31, 2009 I should have broken them into separate paragraphs, I meant to say that if I buy a S2, it would come with the 24, 30 Shift and a 35-90 which is all that I want. I don't care about the normal, short and mid-telephotos in the S system because for stuff to be done with those I'll stay with my 35mm gears, and the R lenses which I still keep are all within that range. "Frustration/Anger" are about the other aspects of the discussion. Makes sense. The S2 will never be a fun camera for me. That's purely work which is why I'm going for a zoom but it does not mean I cannot enjoy the work I do. I have fun with the M8. Fun and enjoyment do overlap but the joy of working the subject is different for each. Got to see how an actual S2 feels in hand. The dummy S2 model didn't really speak to me. Balance and handling is really important to me which was why I never consider any of the MFB as solutions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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