Made in Germany - does it mean anything any more?

[georg]

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From a long-term perspective, social stadards and high salaries are crucial to our economics and quality, too.

Most low-wage-workers manufacture products for high-wage-markets but they're unable to reinvest the money that is given by the high-wage-consumer into high-wage-countries. A Nikon-worker in Japan can pay for a Nikon-DSLR or other high-wage (which are manufactured by people who can also pay for a Nikon) products, his colleague in Thailand (were most Nikons are made) would have to work over one year to pay for one D300 he just assembled in a few hours! Germans love cheap Skodas (a czech brand of VW), you can save about 20% instead of buying a VW - but the workers only get 1/4 of the salary there, the money spend in Germany never reaches the people how made the car, but only increases the shareholder-value with higher margins (for a few years)...

It's a short-sighted one-way-street, convenient and tempting, yes (otherwise, we wouldn't do it) but it's part (there are more reasons) of our economic problems - all over the world (high-wage and low-wage-countries).

 

But it's also problematic from a quality perspective, you lower the standards, good workers go, bad workers stay! It's simple and can be seen easily in Germany (East-German workers get about 30% less salary).

But it's not about "Fritz sticking two parts together" that makes the difference, low-wage-workers can also work well for a certain time (even if it's only the fear to loose the job and starve) but high-wage-workers (e.g. in Germany) are expensive and precious for the company, they cannot be "thrown away" easily, it makes sense to invest into their technical education (the "Facharbeiter" I mentioned) or workplace (better seats, lighting, better tools...).

 

It's not theory, I've seen it with my own eyes at a very powerful German-company. They had their facility in Germany were new products were introduced and problems were solved. "Facharbeiter" worked in the production and were maintaining complex automatized machines (so "Fritz" wasn't necessarly sticking parts together...). But they had their low-wage-facilities, too (Turkey, Korea...) officially to be close to the market and with the same quality-standards. But even when they made the same products, they weren't using the same machines! They had to use older, less automatized technology that was easier to maintain! No innovation, just waiting for the "German partners" to introduce new technologies! People with 20% or 50% (at best) of the salary putting two plastic together for 12h/day! In the end, the German parts were of higher quality, reactions to problems were fast and they weren't even more expensive (it's about efficiency, not wages)!

 

Seat covers from German cars were once made by specialists, people that were trained to handle fabrics, lather... Mercedes manufactured seat covers in their own fab in Hamburg (today they make axles) of pristine quality. Now they're crap (like in any other car, too) because they're made by suppliers for example in South Africa, with low standards, people who are only trained for a few weeks, old machines... They're nothing but cheap slaves! If you want quality today (German leather, made with much higher environmental standards and stitched by skilled craftsment, you have to choose "Designo" - just take a look and compare, there you will see what "Made in Germany" instead of slave-labour really means!

 

It's not about nationality, it's about standards, about different production philosophies.

When a company acts long-sighted enough to pay high-wages in Germany, Switzerland or somewhere else they're also clever enough to invest into higher quality design and materials - of course the product is better than, even when "Fritz" in production hasn't done anything different than a Chinese...

 

It's dramatic, the whole textile industry is basically dead since decades, nobody seems to work there (although, we spent several billion dollars for clothes every month!) it's all about marketing (make a Adidas shoe for 2$ sell it for 100$, pay 50$ for marketing), technical innovation has become rare! A suit made by a craftsmen decades ago is better than an expensive "Hugo Boss" (but Chinese or Vietnamese made)! It's the same with consumer electronics and computers, basic quality standards of mechanics and finishing are lost, more advanced production technologies are rarely used (and mostly come from the automotive industry)! BMW can stitch leather seat covers automatically (in Germany), textile industry cannot!

 

@AlanG

Just look at your steering or other components and see if "Made in Germany" is written on them. The Z4 is not only assembled in the States, it was also designed to meet the US-demands (whatever that means - just like Managers think they can give Americans a car that doesn't drive properly...). I can guarantee you that BMW and Mercedes (even if they've lost much of "Made in Germany") are capable of different cars then Ford or Honda. Visit their enigine-production-site in Landshut/Munich where they make their world-leading petrol-engines and your eyes will pop out! But still, other components aren't made to these standards and when it's the one that fails...

 

@NZDavid

There are regulations, but when 40% are "Made in Germany" and 20% each in Canada, Mexico nad the US, do you write "Made in Germany" on it or "US/Mexico/Canada"? There are more stricter regulations with "Swiss made" (not "Made in Switzerland"!) and "Solingen" (German Knives)

[NZDavid]

That's a very interesting analysis, Georg. Here in New Zealand we are seeing a microcosm of the same issues. Once subsidies and tariffs were removed in the mid '80s many workers lost their jobs and the market was flooded with cheap imports. Suddenly, lots more choice for consumers but very dubious quality. Now, smart companies are realizing that to compete they have to produce high quality products. The temptation is to go overseas for cheap labor, but not entirely: there are some very good local designed and made products, e.g. footwear and furniture. One example is a local furniture manufacturer that concentrates on craftsmanship. The director told me the workers are indeed craftsmen, not assembly workers. Some of their machinery is German-made, 1960s and going strong. Most of the designs are New Zealand, including classic furniture made from 40,000 year old swamp kauri, but they also employed a German design graduate recently to help design some more contemporary pieces.

[miami91]

Everything goes through cycles. There will always be high quality, domestically produced, small quantity goods available for those with the pocketbook (and priorities) to purchase. It may be a "micro economy" today, but that doesn't mean that it's on a death spiral. The converse could be true. We could see a resurgence of domestic, high-quality manufacturing, and a reaction against "slave labour" mass produced products.

 

I think an instructive example would be agriculture. For many decades, the trend (at least here in the USA) was towards ever more highly mechanized, chemical-laden, agribusiness owned/controlled food production, supplemented by cheap imports (likely subject to even more destructive farming methods). However, in the past 5-10 years, the organic/sustainable/locally-sourced food movement has become huge! Granted, it always existed in some small form and in certain locales, but in my mid-sized city (Minneapolis, MN), we have more locally owned and operated food co-ops than can be counted on two hands, along with the corporate behemoths (Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc.) that are in almost every American city. We have two very large farmer's markets that are packed every weekend, lots of restaurants that feature ever-changing menus of locally-sourced meat and produce, and a thriving CSA community (Community Supported Agriculture). Even the large chain supermarkets and variety stores like Target, Wal-Mart, Cub, etc. have large organic lines, because their decidedly middle-brow clientele have demanded it! In a nutshell, organic/sustainable has gone mainstream, with benefits across the spectrum of society (better food, friendlier environmental practices, more money for the small farmer, etc.).

 

So I don't think there's cause for despair. The lowest-common-denominator approach to design/manufacturing will also pass.

 

Jeff.

[holmes]

Taken in the context of how world marketing has changed for better or good, the; label made in wherever should be viewed with some suspicion. I live in the US and in September '05 bought a new Japanese 4 Runner. This is one of the very few Japanese vehicles sold in the US that are totally "made in Japan" with Japanese QC. I have a Canon 200 f 1.8 ( now discontinued) that took a special Canon team 12-18 months to produce. It is essentially flawless. Canon stopped because they were losing Yen in production costs. Now they are trying a 200 f 2L IS. "Made in Germany" used to have a proud tradition of excellence from design to manufacturing to finished product. My first car was a Bug, red 1964, and I waited 6 weeks for it to come from Germany. It was running after 240,000 miles. It was killed in the US when the government changed its emission laws. With regard to my Leicas, I have two 'R' lenses made in Canada. A superb R90 f 2 and an Elmar R180 f 4. They were designed and put together by workers of Leitz/Leica. They also had to meet all QC standards. I have an M f 1.4 made in Canada. Germany, Canada, Portugal, who cares, they are Leica design and produced meeting Leica standards. In the case of Portugal the final assembly takes (or took) place at Solms to meet Leica's QC. If I was a collector, yes, made in Germany, would make a difference. I'm a photographer, I'll shoot with a Leica lens made in Alabama as along as the final construction and QC is done in Germany under Leica with Leica employees.

[haris]

Where in the world is the BMW Z4 made, Alan?

 

In USA. Motor (engine) and few other things are made in Germany and shipped to USA, where all other parts are made and final assembly and QC is done.

[haris]

Low quality is planned.

 

Less quality products people needs to buy more new products, more emloyrers needed to make them, higher employment, more people have job.

 

High quality product, long time used, less new product needed, buyed, less employers needed for making new products, less people have job.

[Wolfgang Esslinger]

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"Made in Germany" means nothing today - if it ever had.

 

It is the brand that counts. And the determination and cleverness of a company's management to hire the right people and introduce the right processes.

 

In the 60s the Japanese copied German cameras. In the 90s Porsche copied Japanese manufacturing. Now Porsche is teaching Leica how to produce cameras efficiently.

[AlanG]

In USA. Motor (engine) and few other things are made in Germany and shipped to USA, where all other parts are made and final assembly and QC is done.

 

As I posted earlier -

 

In 2006 only 30% of the parts in US assembled BMWs were from North America. (The lowest of any "foreign" car company building in the US.) I think only 15% of the parts in the US assembled X5 were from North America.

 

I don't know if this has changed substantially in recent years. The parts and assembly of my old 1971 BMW 2002 were not so great. The rear seat never fit right. The window regulators broke. The spring indent mechanisms for holding the doors open broke several times. The turn signal control switch fell apart. The gas tank rusted out and leaked. The whole car rusted quickly. The exhaust system needed replacement fairly often. Bearings went in the differential. Chassis started cracking where the McPherson struts attached. I felt it needed a transmission and engine rebuild too quickly.

[Guest Posto 6]

Actually, compared to the days of the M3 and before, made in Germany as far as Leica are concerned is a misnomer. From what I can tell, the main German input is in final assembly of outsourced components and assemblies from Leica Portugal as well as other suppliers further afield. The day of the integrated manufacturing plant seems to have run it's course in Europe, and like a lot of products, the "made in Germany" logo is essentially a marketing-oriented product-placement effort by Leica.

[wstotler]

Stereotypes they may be, but there's still some validity to nationalities and product design. I like this on cows: New and Improved Economic Cow Jokes | Beyond The Beyond

 

Thanks for posting this link--really funny.

 

For me, a "Made in Germany" stamp sure doesn't hurt.

 

Leica, Sennheiser/Neumann, Emagic (now owned by Apple), Wusthof, Mini (made in UK but designed in Germany), VW (passat) all come to mind.

 

As a consumer, I'll look twice at any implement/machine/device coming from Germany. . . . Scandinavian, Belgian, Dutch, and some Japanese products fall into the same general interest category. It's a form-follows-function (but smartly/stylishly) design emphasis that I tend to like--and the stuff that tends to make it to the U.S. is solidly made or solves a traditional need with an unusual (or very well executed) design solution.

 

Thanks,

Will

[georg]

The location of production tells you something about the mindset of the company, something that's otherwise difficult to see from the outside-perspective of a customer.

A dirty restaurant doesn't need to have a bad chef with bad food, does it? But a good chef wouldn't work in a dirty/not-hygienic kitchen!

 

Social/environmental/education standards are very different all over the world, certain aspects of our so-called "globalization" even made it more difficult to adapt to high-wage-standards for low-wage-countries (or more precise: social classes).

 

You won't even necessarily notice the difference in quality by offshoring production to low-wage-locations at first sight. In the beginning, experiences from the previous high-wage-fab are still available. But after some time, the communication between R&D, QC and production becomes more and more difficult. Problems take longer to be solved and new, innovative technologies are difficult to introduce.

So after some time, production has become more conventional, making the same failures over and over, less efficient...

As I said, it isn't theory, it has happened already to whole industries! Where are the technological breakthroughs in the textile industry? Lot's of (cheap to produce) synthetic fabrics, cool names, designs and brands - not quality... Is this what we want?

Another example: the cnc-machining of the new Macbooks-cases is 20 years behind, skilled "Zerspanungstechniker" with special tools made out of synthetic diamond (PKD) in Germany with sophisticated HSC-centres (also available "Made in Germany") could make those parts twice as fast, with no manual work, less environmental pollution and more precision and no visible burrs. But Apple chose the convenient, stupid way "Made in China"... "Apple" is nice design, nice concepts but it's just a brand, not quality!

 

 

The Leica-bodies aren't manufactured by Leica in Portugal but sub-assembly and some components (with the machines that were brought from Canada, formerly Wetzlar) are made there. Most of the work is done by suppliers (in Germany). The lenses are nearly all "Made in Germany".

 

The mentioned "lean production" is cost-cutting (although it isn't called that way by it's supporters) by some more or less clever management-methods in production/logistics. It has little to do with the actual production process and therefore you will see huge differences between Toyota, Porsche or Leica. It's true, the highly efficient vertical integrated production of the family-company Leitz was thrown away in the 60/70s and I hope the S2 and the Leitz-Park (reintegrating Weller as a producer of mechanical parts) will go in a different direction!

 

Puh, I think that's enough for now ;-)

[RASO]

Merchandise Marks Act 1887

 

Made in Germany

Used to be a warning to ensure that our teutonic inferior (and they were) products invaded the island all that time ago.

 

How things change.

 

Today really I always hope that good quality products regardless of their origin find enough buyers to survive and let a tradition grow.

 

Instead of discussing the state of Leica. We, all 14000(?) members of this forum, should set up a fond investing approx. € 1000,-- each in return for rebates or something.

 

Certainly would give Leica some cash to develop a R10.

[NZDavid]

Merchandise Marks Act 1887

Instead of discussing the state of Leica. We, all 14000(?) members of this forum, should set up a fond investing approx. € 1000,-- each in return for rebates or something.

 

Certainly would give Leica some cash to develop a R10.

 

Anybody listening out there?

 

Georg, some interesting points on "cost cutting" and what it really means. It is only cost cutting in terms of wages, there are no cuts in energy usage, environmental pollution, or speed of production. So what happens when labor in China is no longer cheap? Move elsewhere... but for how long? And then what?

 

Surely the key aim for any company should not be just to expand ad infinitum, but simply to be sustainable?

 

I have just reviewed a book, German Design for Modern Living: The Classics, by Bernd Polster, mostly about appliances and furniture, but fascinating further reading.

[USA road racer]

I tend to purchase products "made in Germany". I do so for a reason. The engineering that goes into their products. Yes, I drive a BMW as well as a Ford F250 Super Duty (its manual transmission is a Getrag made in Germany). I have my Leica's. I also love my SIg Saur & Walther handguns. All of these products do what they were designed to do VERY well. Quality is unreal on all of them. My Sig pistols (2 German made, 1 USA made) are unreal but neither is the match of the German made Walther's I own. They will never mis function no matter what I do with them. The Germans make some excellent rifles as well BUT they cannot match one American company ~ McMillan. But the McMillan's are almost a custom build.

 

All in all, I still believe that German made products are better engineered and have some VERY dedicated people working for those companies. My neighbors family works for Leica in Germany. Both his Aunt & cousin hand paint the lines on the lenses. They do NOT consume any caffeine until the work day ends as they need a steady hand. Lets see that in a Chrysler or GM plant!!!

 

No, I will continue to buy German products unless I can find something better made somewhere else. After all, there are no German F250s out there.