Magenta Work-around for Capture One workflow

[dhoelscher]

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...I'm going to try Metz next.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

 

Thanks, Sean!

 

That will be interesting ... my 3502 is firmware rev 4, and works OK with my M7.

 

BTW, very nice wedding pictures ..

 

DH

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[ptomsu]

Folks

 

I am sorry, but workarounds in any post processing SW are totally unacceptable. This is not what I expect from a high end camera like a Leica.

 

So I do hope they come up with a real solution, e.g. new filter on sensor et., also if that measn to recall all shipped M8's. If a camera internal solution is not coming then this will NOT be the camera for me and I am sure also not for a number of others who have waited long time with patience for it to arrive.

 

Peter

[j. borger]

Folks

 

I am sorry, but workarounds in any post processing SW are totally unacceptable. This is not what I expect from a high end camera like a Leica.

 

Peter

Firmware updates and new colorprofiles are hardly "workarounds" but permanent solutions .......... Peter ! Software & Hardware are both vital parts of any digital camera.

[Jamie Roberts]

Folks

 

I am sorry, but workarounds in any post processing SW are totally unacceptable. This is not what I expect from a high end camera like a Leica.

 

So I do hope they come up with a real solution, e.g. new filter on sensor et., also if that measn to recall all shipped M8's. If a camera internal solution is not coming then this will NOT be the camera for me and I am sure also not for a number of others who have waited long time with patience for it to arrive.

 

Peter

 

Peter--you misunderstand the use of a profile, so I'm going to explain it.

 

A new profile for the M8 is NOT a post-process workaround. I agree with you--that's totally unacceptable.

 

For example, in normal production (not post production), I will either get a JPEG created with a profile from the camera, or I'll create my own output, with a profile, from the RAW file with a converter like C1.

 

In both cases, a profile is involved. In the JPEG, you change the parameters of the output (like color space) on the menu in the camera.

 

In the RAW converter, you change everything yourself. Once I've applied the new M8 profile, the software knows it and uses it for all M8 shots till I change it again.

 

So applying a profile is a regular digital production step, like picking a paper type to print on. It's really that simple.

 

That's why a good profile that gets rid of magenta is a wonderful permanent solution.

 

It's potentially better than filters, because it won't have the optical hotspots that the filters do. It will work with all lenses. It can be updated simply and economically.

 

The only reason I'm calling my tweak a "workaround' and not a "fix" is that

 

1) there are people in this world who really understand profiling. Leica should hire them, please, to build a new C1 profile and fix their JPEG output.

 

2) It's not official from C1. Right now, no-one from Phase has threatened me or anything, and I'm going to make this available as soon as someone like Sean says they like it (he's got a huge amount of shots). But I don't want C1 to get, um, upset with me.

 

3) It won't work for JPEGs. But it obviously could.

 

In another thread, people have said that only filters will create the right "reality" and "accurate" colors.

 

That's not true, actually. A good profile is a pre-requisite for accuracy and neutrality. You can take a neutral shot any where you like; a cast is hard to get rid of.

 

But what the profile does is really act like a sw filter. I believe now that it works because the original IR shift is NOT "magenta" but something outside visible range or normal color spaces. In other words, the "IR magenta" only exists in LAB:CIE space, and it gets mapped to magenta in a, um, sloppy profile.

 

But properly made, a good profile easily says "this is the result of IR reflection; map this to a visible color"

 

Since the Phase D30 profiles already do this, Phase knows about it.

 

So I'm keeping my M8 because I believe Leica / Phase will fix this at the sensor level. BUT you're still going to need a good profile to get good color... just like you would with any other color input device.

[holgerf]

Hi Jamie - I only have LE too - but I'd love to check out your test profile.

 

kind regards

jono slack

 

@ all LE users:

 

I do have access to all the profiles though using only the LE version. I suppose this is because I had tried the pro version before as a demo and the profiles are still in my Mac-system (Library/ColorSync/Profiles). However it may be a bit tricky to find them - these are the steps on my MAC OS X:

 

(1) download and install the PRO version

(2) launch the LE version

(3) choose the preferences from the CAPTURE ONE LE menu

(4) choose COLOUR MANAGEMENT

(5) choose the tab CAMERA

(6) two drop-down-menus will appear

(7) in the first drop-down-menu FOR CAMERA choose LEICA M8

(8) in the second drop-down-menu USE PROFILE BY DEFAULT choose the profile you’re looking for.

 

-->> If you don’t find it:

(9) at the buttom of the list in this drop-down-menu choose CHOOSE ALL

(10) surprise - zillions of profiles are waiting for you, grouped by camera vendor

(11) the submenu of Phase One should offer the profile PHASE ONE P30 FLASH EASY-BLACK

 

Just try it and good luck.

 

 

Holger

[mahler_one]

Jamie: Thanks for taking the time and effort to post the "fix". Of course, one would have to own Capture to work through and correct the color casts, and if one already has Photoshop or another program the additional expense would be bothersome. I agree with those who are awaiting the solution from Leica. Thanks again.

[Jamie Roberts]

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Jamie: Thanks for taking the time and effort to post the "fix". Of course, one would have to own Capture to work through and correct the color casts, and if one already has Photoshop or another program the additional expense would be bothersome. I agree with those who are awaiting the solution from Leica. Thanks again.

 

Dr Mahler,

 

I haven't posted a fix; just an observation. I'm also waiting for Leica to fix this

 

In the meantime, though, and since I'm travelling, I will post my version of the profile that will work in many situations for many users, including C1 LE users (which comes with the camera).

 

When I get back home, I'll check my email and see what people think. You can always post shots here, especially if you think they're not right.

 

BTW--the profile won't solve WB or exposure problems, and you're going to need to adjust saturation. Colors will shift in different light

 

Anyway--you can download this test here. Since I don't have a MAC, I have no idea whether this will work or not.

 

Steps for Windows XP / 2000 Internet Explorer:

 

1) please RIGHT-CLICK the following link (use the right-hand mouse button) when you select the URL below.

 

A popup menu will let you select "Save target as..." and then you can save the profile to your computer

 

2) On Windows, RIGHT-CLICK the profile again and it will say "Install profile." Go ahead and do that.

 

3) When you bring up C1 LE or Pro, select Workflow... Show Color Management settings. You'll see a Window that says "Camera Product" and when you select an M8 shot it will say "Leica M8"

 

4) The window just below this says "Camera" and you need to UNCHECK the "Show only Phase One Profiles" and select the JHR_M8_TEST2 profile.

 

5) Go ahead and process. Good luck!

 

http://http://www.fouldsroberts.ca/test/workaround/JHR_M8_TEST2.icm

[Guest stevenrk]

Steven--one more before I hit the hay for the evening...

 

In other words, you just can't be sloppy with digital.

 

Jamie, I appreciate your explanation, and understand what you are trying to do. At the same time, you make assumptions that are not correct. I am not suggesting that one should be "sloppy" with digital. In fact the only one here who seems to have been sloppy is Leica.

 

I agree that digital is often more unforgiving than film.

 

I also understand C1 profiles. For my Canons and RD1 I actually have taken the Phase and Chrome profiles and tuned them with the color editor to provide me with images that are closer to my sense of how I'd like the color to be drawn. I would have done the same with my M8 profiles using the Chrome and the Phase (as they were refined in a second generation).

 

But at the same time, to try and rationalize that but for a bit overexposure in a shot of a coat everything would be fine is reaching. It's not about exposure or profiles. Like the campaign add use to say, It's Leica. And that is why, with your good efforts noted, I hope that Leica recognizes that and doesn't sit back because they think they can get away with IR cut filters on coded lenses or home brewed profiles to cope with engineered color deficiencies.

 

We should be talking about developing C1 profiles to improve upon and personalize the color from a strong -- and consistent, replicable and seeable -- base. If we get that, the M8 is a brilliant camera that might just shift the way digital develops. If not, I'd bet it's likely to become a very capable and beautifully built rare collector's item that marks the end of digital RF. I vote for a not rare collector's item that keeps on selling out and speaks to the start of a generation of RF digitals the way the 1Ds was for the SLR.

 

And yes the M8 can produce lovely color under certain conditions and render delicate detail -- and particularly in prints. And seems to have a deep DR with clean shadows. I just want the other 50%. OK, maybe 25%.

 

The shot -- which is a poor example compared to many other shots we've seen here already -- is of Arlington Cemetery on Veterans Day with the M8 and the 50mm Summilux with no filters (including no RedDotIR, ND or Pol). I used one of the C1 Chrome profiles to develop.

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[sean_reid]

Thanks, Sean!

 

That will be interesting ... my 3502 is firmware rev 4, and works OK with my M7.

 

BTW, very nice wedding pictures ..

 

DH

 

Thanks.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest stevenrk]

And some good news that Leica has stopped shipment to dealers temporarily (LL). A good sign that there is a real fix in the works to deliver the M8 we were hoping for.

[markedavison]

Jamie,

 

Could you post the link again. The link you posted is corrupted, and I can't download the file.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mark Davison

[Jamie Roberts]

Jamie,

 

Could you post the link again. The link you posted is corrupted, and I can't download the file.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mark Davison

 

Mark--

 

D'oh!! You're quite correct--

 

Sorry folks. I pasted the URL in there and it added another HTTP://

 

Ah well. The actual profile is here :

 

http://www.fouldsroberts.ca/test/workaround/JHR_M8_TEST2.icm

 

Remember to right-click to get the file.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

But at the same time, to try and rationalize that but for a bit overexposure in a shot of a coat everything would be fine is reaching. It's not about exposure or profiles. Like the campaign add use to say, It's Leica. And that is why, with your good efforts noted, I hope that Leica recognizes that and doesn't sit back because they think they can get away with IR cut filters on coded lenses or home brewed profiles to cope with engineered color deficiencies.

{snipped}.

 

Steven, lovely shot, first of all.

 

But with all due respect, I'm not trying to rationalize anything. Just telling the truth from my perspective.

 

I agree with most of what you said, especially that Leica should not be relying on a home-brewed tweak. As I've said before, this is a workaround, not a fix.

 

As for the shot of the "navy" jacket, exposure and white balance, please appreciate that on the Thinkpad screen I currently am using while I'm away from home, the "navy" jacket looked exactly the same in relation to black (which was magenta) as it did in the profiled version.

 

This tells me first of all that the profile works--there is no difference between shot one and shot two--as far as I can see.

 

But I also saw a WhiBal set of gray cards in the shot, and if that's what was used to WB the experiment, then it simply won't work--the REFERENCE is overexposed. The lightest gray in a WhiBal should show about 200/200/200 RGB values max to get a good balance.

 

So in that shot--at least in the JPEG posted--it was simply overexposed. I stand by this assessment completely, Steven.

 

Now, I'm going to call Sean Reid tomorrow (it's too late now) and talk about a couple of things, including where, I hope, the profile can be improved.

 

And I'm not trying to let Leica off the hook in the slightest.

 

But I'll say this again: the C1 profile for this marvellous camera is severely flawed. It's not neutral by any stretch, and, in typical fashion I might add, is simply not optimized!

 

The very same thing happened with the Canon 1d*2 series when they came out--but no-one remembers it anymore. Everyone was screaming about the cyan skies--yes, they were cyan--and yellow grass (and they only partially fixed that). It took a third party to fix that. If Canon hadn't also produced their own raw converter, with its own profiles, people might have just assumed that Canon messed up.

 

But they didn't. Phase did.

 

So that's my position: you can't WB from an overexposed gray card, no matter how clever you are. You can't tell navy from black very much when the light makes them both gray. I'm not reaching; just stating a fact.

 

In fact., I have a dozen shots right now of me wearing a navy blue shirt with a black jacket on top--illuminated by tungsten--and the M8 with the right profile simply just displays the right thing.

 

I'm not saying Leica doesn't have to fix the sensor problem. But they *also* need to fix the profile in their supplied RAW converter, which is Phase One.

 

Anyway, Allen--if you're reading, I still can't dl the files. But I will on Thursday!

[markedavison]

See

 

Infrared filtration examples

 

for some comparative examples of IR filtration. I have included a Leica M8 shot where the filtration was done by applying the modified Phase One profile from Jamie.

 

Here's a description:

The scene was shot with incandescent illumination from ordinary lightbulbs. The camera white balances were set to 2800 K where possible. The Epson R-D1 was set to incandescent.

 

The first example is the D200, which is very insensitive to IR. The colors in the first D200 photograph are a very accurate rendition of the way the scene appears to my eye. Take special note of the maroon and green pile blankets, the black Leica M lens, and the black pile jacket at the bottom of the photograph. The second photograph shows the D200 with IR cut filtration (via a Tiffen standard hot mirror filter). There is hardly any visible change in the colors. The third photograph is with the D200 and the IR pass filter (a Hoya R72), taken at the same exposure as the first two photographs. There is no visble IR at all at this exposure.

 

The photographs continue in sequence for 3 more cameras: the Leica M8, the Epson R-D1 and the Nikon D2h. For each camera I show an image with no filtration, with IR cut, and IR pass, all at the same exposure. Note how much IR is recorded by the M8--it is the most IR sensitive of all the cameras. Note also how the IR contamination has completely bleached the green out of the green pile blanket, how the maroon blanket has shifted color, how there is a purple sheen on the barrel of the Leica lens, and how the black pile jacket has turned dark purple. The shot with IR cut filtration knocks down the purple sheen on the lens barrel, improves color saturation and contrast overall, but doesn't quite return the green pile blanket to the correct color. Note also that there was a glowing IR reflection from the "black" pile jacket on the bottom of the apple which is taken out by the IR filtration.

 

Similar comments apply to the Nikon D2h, but the infrared sensitivity is weaker and the corrections with the IR cut filter look better to my eye.

 

The Leica M8 shot which has been filtered by application of the profile Jamie supplied does have better blacks in the anodized aluminum objects, but the green of the pile blanket at the top has not been restored, and in general the colors of the pile fabrics look faded. More subtly, the IR reflection on the bottom of the apple has not been removed.

 

My point is that IR contamination is not something that only affects synthetic black objects and dark anodized aluminum--it contaminates practially all synthetic pile fabrics that I can find in my house. So you can't just hunt down dark purple things and change their color. (By the way, if you shoot social events and students in classrooms in Seattle in the winter, you are going to encounter a lot of pile jackets and incandescent light, so this is not some obscure rare combination, at least for my use.)

 

Mark Davison

[osera]

Mark-

 

Very interesting set of images.

 

Question: Do you know how the Tiffen filter that you used would compare to the B+W 486 filter?

 

I'm particularly struck by the different appearance of the green pile blanket on all of the unfiltered images? Was it hard to keep the final WB similar across this set of images from the different cameras?

[markedavison]

I can't find a graph of the wavelength response of the Tiffen Hot Mirror filter, so I can't say how it differs from the B+W 486.

 

I kept the WB constant in these shots. I used 2800 K for all cameras except the R-D1, and used tungsten for that camera. I find 2800 K gives a pleasing appearance for objects lit by the incandescent bulbs in my house--just visibly warm.

 

Automatic white balance seems to go wonky in the presence of infrared contamination, so I didn't use that.

 

Mark

[Guest stevenrk]

See

 

Infrared filtration examples

 

for some comparative examples of IR filtration. I have included a Leica M8 shot where the filtration was done by applying the modified Phase One profile from Jamie.

 

Here's a description:

The scene was shot with incandescent illumination from ordinary lightbulbs. The camera white balances were set to 2800 K where possible. The Epson R-D1 was set to incandescent.

 

The first example is the D200, which is very insensitive to IR. The colors in the first D200 photograph are a very accurate rendition of the way the scene appears to my eye. Take special note of the maroon and green pile blankets, the black Leica M lens, and the black pile jacket at the bottom of the photograph. The second photograph shows the D200 with IR cut filtration (via a Tiffen standard hot mirror filter). There is hardly any visible change in the colors. The third photograph is with the D200 and the IR pass filter (a Hoya R72), taken at the same exposure as the first two photographs. There is no visble IR at all at this exposure.

 

The photographs continue in sequence for 3 more cameras: the Leica M8, the Epson R-D1 and the Nikon D2h. For each camera I show an image with no filtration, with IR cut, and IR pass, all at the same exposure. Note how much IR is recorded by the M8--it is the most IR sensitive of all the cameras. Note also how the IR contamination has completely bleached the green out of the green pile blanket, how the maroon blanket has shifted color, how there is a purple sheen on the barrel of the Leica lens, and how the black pile jacket has turned dark purple. The shot with IR cut filtration knocks down the purple sheen on the lens barrel, improves color saturation and contrast overall, but doesn't quite return the green pile blanket to the correct color. Note also that there was a glowing IR reflection from the "black" pile jacket on the bottom of the apple which is taken out by the IR filtration.

 

Similar comments apply to the Nikon D2h, but the infrared sensitivity is weaker and the corrections with the IR cut filter look better to my eye.

 

The Leica M8 shot which has been filtered by application of the profile Jamie supplied does have better blacks in the anodized aluminum objects, but the green of the pile blanket at the top has not been restored, and in general the colors of the pile fabrics look faded. More subtly, the IR reflection on the bottom of the apple has not been removed.

 

My point is that IR contamination is not something that only affects synthetic black objects and dark anodized aluminum--it contaminates practially all synthetic pile fabrics that I can find in my house. So you can't just hunt down dark purple things and change their color. (By the way, if you shoot social events and students in classrooms in Seattle in the winter, you are going to encounter a lot of pile jackets and incandescent light, so this is not some obscure rare combination, at least for my use.)

 

Mark Davison

 

 

Mark, thank you for putting this together. Very thorough examiniation and visual explanation of what this is about and why it's such a significant problem.

[nryn]

As I reported in my M8 review, TTL works beautifully with the SF24D on the M8. Too bad the SF24 is so limited. I'm going to try Metz next.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean, I'm interested in which Metz you're looking at. I have a 54 MZ-3 for which I intend on purchasing an M8 SCA adapter (I love this flash), but I loathe the idea of traveling with that flash again, particularly now that it's bulkier than the camera I'll be putting it on. I purchased the 24D for use with the M8 after evaluating Metz's smaller flashes. If I get brave I might modify my 24D, but chances are I'll just use an off-camera cord.

 

I don't know why it's so difficult to manufacture a flash with positioning options and a small form factor. I have this older Nikon flash (SB-25?) which I'd love to use with the M8 but I doubt it would work.

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[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}The Leica M8 shot which has been filtered by application of the profile Jamie supplied does have better blacks in the anodized aluminum objects, but the green of the pile blanket at the top has not been restored, and in general the colors of the pile fabrics look faded. More subtly, the IR reflection on the bottom of the apple has not been removed.

 

{snipped}

Mark Davison

 

Mark--thanks for the analysis. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there is a significant saturation difference in the 'easy black' profile, especially in the greens.

 

To my eyes, this overall saturation level accounts for a lot of the difference you're showing here, not to mention the apparent gamma of the shots are not at all the same (whether that's due to IR or the profile I can't say, though if the filters are exposure neutral then it would be IR).

 

Still, very interesting. When I've had time (just got home from very rainy Atlanta to very rainy Toronto!) I'll tweak the profile and you can try it some more!

 

Thanks!

[foolstop]

Hi,

 

I have been looking at these threads for quite a while.

May I have a naive question?

 

Why all the cameras (D70, M8 & R-D1) affected by the IR contamination have the IR signal overlaying the black colour with magenta tint?

 

These cameras come with different sensors, different logic boards, different firmware. Yet they all interpret the IR signal and display the signal in magenta colour, is it amazing?

 

Why not some of them displaying the IR in pink, some in red etc?

 

I really cannot image the defect present itself in such an "uniform" manner.

 

foolstop