M8 issues for B&W?

[steve_l]

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I want the M8 just for B&W...but I still see some issues. Maybe someone out there can help me understand if this is the complete set of issues and if they are serious (I no longer rely on my own thinking here, the synergistic brainpower of this group has proved to be amazing):

 

1. Any scene with significant IR (not just ones with synthetic material) will show fuzzy focus in some areas where the IR is high relative to visible light levels. This has been reported but not demonstrated yet - people have claimed anecdotally that shots with IR filters are sharper, but the unfiltered shots that have been posted look sharp overall - how can we tell if this is an issue?

 

2. B&W tonalities are all wrong - green (grass, trees) shows as very light, skies are dramatic - sort of like we see in intentional IR photography. Can't really be fixed when converting from color RAW to B&W, because somethings are really that tone, some are misrepresented...depends on amount of IR in the scene?

 

3. Using IR filters to correct issues 1 & 2 has all the problems of using them for color - they are needed on every lens, cause flare/reflections, expensive, virtually unavailable (maybe just temporarily), and (very important to me) don't work well on wide angle lenses (vignetting, cyan corners).

[chrism]

Like you I want the M8 for B&W. These DNGs came through OK to my eye:

 

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Chris

[peterv]

I want the M8 just for B&W...but I still see some issues. Maybe someone out there can help me understand if this is the complete set of issues and if they are serious (I no longer rely on my own thinking here, the synergistic brainpower of this group has proved to be amazing):

 

1. Any scene with significant IR (not just ones with synthetic material) will show fuzzy focus in some areas where the IR is high relative to visible light levels. This has been reported but not demonstrated yet - people have claimed anecdotally that shots with IR filters are sharper, but the unfiltered shots that have been posted look sharp overall - how can we tell if this is an issue?

 

2. B&W tonalities are all wrong - green (grass, trees) shows as very light, skies are dramatic - sort of like we see in intentional IR photography. Can't really be fixed when converting from color RAW to B&W, because somethings are really that tone, some are misrepresented...depends on amount of IR in the scene?

 

3. Using IR filters to correct issues 1 & 2 has all the problems of using them for color - they are needed on every lens, cause flare/reflections, expensive, virtually unavailable (maybe just temporarily), and (very important to me) don't work well on wide angle lenses (vignetting, cyan corners).

 

That just about sums it up (I am afraid).

Over the past week I've done nothing but reading the forums and the problems you mention are being discussed in numerous threads.

Not many people actually can come up with 'proof', but Physicians seem to cofirm these 'problems'...

 

I'm just hoping for the best. It seems to me Leica is very close to building a wonderfull camera.

[j. borger]

This is soooo academic ........i see NO WRONG in B&W from this camera .. so i better stop reading all these threads .. it's so frustrating .. just wished there was a way to filter out the trolls ... just tell me where the tonality is wrong or the sharpness fals short ...

no better not tell me and let me enjoy this camera!

 

Some snaps to test the B&W capacities .... all shot with noctilux or 35 lux pre-asph .....some iso 640 some iso 1250

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[steve_l]

J. Borger-

You are welcome to use whatever camera you like. But our wanting to know the truth doesn't make us "trolls".

 

And is the foliage in your images all really that white where the sun hits it? And if you blow up these shots and actually print them, are they as sharp as they could be? I, for one, can't tell from your uncontrolled "experiment".

 

If you don't care, then the solution is easy - just stop reading these posts. And let others do the analysis they need to find what is really happening here, to make informed decisions.

[j. borger]

Yes Steve .. go find yourself some "TRUE BLACK AND WHITE"..... you hear what you are saying?

(BTW the trolling was not particular directed to you or anybody in this thread ....my apologies if you took this personal .... but all forums seem to be way out of control, where trolling plays a big part .... i let myself cary away in anger ....)

For the leaves .. they were glowing yellow (almost white) in the scene.

IN B&W people use red, green, orange , etc filters .... to get "pleasing contrast" .. we also use these in a digital form and perhaps do some chanelmixing etc..... so really "different tones in B&W" realy is not an issue.

True B&W does not exist .. because life is in color ..

Realistic color does not exist eithet... does the world look velvia or kodakchrome.. tell me???

(BTW this does not mean i am happy with the magenta shift)

[j. borger]

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The black cap of the black boy showed the magenta shift BTW ..... so if the camera did not have the IR issue it would probaly have been converted to deeper black ..... but is that a problem??? ....if i wanted that cap to be darker i could burn it in.

In the case of picture one the jacket of the guy showed the magenta shift .. so it is converted lighter than it would have been without the IR shift.. saved me some dodging on the jacket .. because lighter it stand nicely out from the other black tones.

I hope you get my point ... B&W photography is a dreamworld .. in all circumstances!

 

For sharpness .. i do not know if these pictures are as sharp as they could be.

But from the prints i have done .. unsharp masking is a thing of the past with the M8!

For portraits .. i need to soften!

[cocker]

This is soooo academic ........i see NO WRONG in B&W from this camera .. so i better stop reading all these threads .. it's so frustrating .. just wished there was a way to filter out the trolls ... just tell me where the tonality is wrong or the sharpness fals short ...

no better not tell me and let me enjoy this camera!

 

Some snaps to test the B&W capacities .... all shot with noctilux or 35 lux pre-asph .....some iso 640 some iso 1250

 

If you can get those results with the M8 I want it!!!

[gumshoecamus]

borger

these are great pix -- esp the bemused looking man

the poster who is bleating about white leaves or whatever: get out more

the problem with leica's poor customer communication is that now everyone is going to pour over every M8 image and discover flaws. every image has flaws. my n70, 5d (now sold) had em, so does my R-D1 and CFV, and even my film cameras have em. so what, life is imperfect. to paraphrase wittgenstein, friction is imperfection, but it allows you to explore the world.

dave

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

1. Any scene with significant IR (not just ones with synthetic material) will show fuzzy focus in some areas where the IR is high relative to visible light levels. This has been reported but not demonstrated yet - people have claimed anecdotally that shots with IR filters are sharper, but the unfiltered shots that have been posted look sharp overall - how can we tell if this is an issue?

 

2. B&W tonalities are all wrong - green (grass, trees) shows as very light, skies are dramatic - sort of like we see in intentional IR photography. Can't really be fixed when converting from color RAW to B&W, because somethings are really that tone, some are misrepresented...depends on amount of IR in the scene?

 

{Snippep}.

 

Steve:

 

1) unfiltered shots are the sharpest I've seen from a 35 format digital to date. Bar none. Could they be sharper? I hope not.

 

2) BW tonality is near perfect to my eyes, if you use the right source profile and BW workflow. Much better than my Canons, which had IR sensitivity in skin tones as opposed to neutrals.

 

There you go! I'll post some examples when I get a chance.

[TimF]

J. Borger,

Very nice shots. The skin of the black boy has a slight 'luminescence' about it, which might, or might not, be related to the IR thing. The overall quality though - even on web images - is just sublime. Thanks for sharing them.

 

Chris too. The second shot in particular is terrific.

[j. borger]

J. Borger,

Very nice shots. The skin of the black boy has a slight 'luminescence' about it, which might, or might not, be related to the IR thing. The overall quality though - even on web images - is just sublime. Thanks for sharing them.

 

Chris too. The second shot in particular is terrific.

Thanks Tim ... but to rule this out before we get another rumour out.. i did a sloppy dodge on that face because it was sunken in deep shadow .. he was a very black ....black boy. This was the only part of all the images i did some quick processing/altering on ... rest is off camera processed with JFI labs B&W profiles in C1.. do not know which filter settings i used ... if any.

[steve_l]

OK, I give up. Everything here looks sharp enough (whatever that means). I'll take delivery and start shooting!

 

I probably will put 486 IR filters on, though - even though everything is "imaginary", I'd like to start with tonality that is as close as practical to what my eyes see. (black/magenta, greens from Guy's examples, skin tones showing blotchy reds, all will affect tonality on B&W conversion..)

 

I haven't tried the JFI profiles yet, but surely will, based on universal raves for them...I've just been doing a channel mixer thing up to now.

[TimF]

Thanks Tim ... but to rule this out before we get another rumour out.. i did a sloppy dodge on that face because it was sunken in deep shadow .. he was a very black ....black boy.

Cheers for explanation.

[Bill Sievers]

Does anyone really think that this is a sensible substitute for BW film? A 5,000 camera for shooting digital BW and that has serious problems shooting color?

[innerimager]

Beautiful images, Borger! thanks...Peter