A positive note to Leica from those holding off on or returning M8s

[Guest stevenrk]

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I returned the M8 that I received. I'm very comfortable with that decision. Today's statement from Leica brings great hope that it will only be a temporary loss.

 

Yesterday's news cycle, with the odd informal mesage sent by Leica through Sean about "let them buy filters," had left me very saddened about the likelyhood of ever owning an M8. (And thank you Sean for delivering it and for everything you've done to help sort this out throughout -- you are deserving of a medal for your efforts and standing tall against some of the unfair shots you've bravely taken for the good of the order.)

 

Leica's, very reassuring, official, simple, direct acknowledgement today of the problems, recognition that it means the camera does not meet the company's own standards, and commitment to finding real solutions is great news. It gives me confidence that within maybe just a few months I will be lining up for an M8 version 1.01 that delivers on what the company and its customers expected -- an RF that can be used in all circumstances and light and produce images of the highest Leica quality and color using all of the long and rich history of lenses made for the M brand.

 

And with that, a tool that presents a whole new way in the digital age of being able to interact with our subjects and surroundings by brining one of the most important traditions of film photography properly into the digital age.

 

Can't wait to reorder my two M8.01s.

 

And my question: Anyone else who'se returned or held off on their purchase want to deliver to Leica a bit of good news and reassure them that they have not lost us as customers, as we are still firmly set on purchasing an M8 that, quoting from Stephan Daniel's statement today, "does ...meet the expectations in the Leica brand [of] Leica and its customers."?

[rfleica]

i will go for the "m8.01". it was with great regret that i postponed my m8. i want leica to do well. but i can wait a little longer to get the lowlight performance i need (without ghosts in the machine).

[alexr]

I have postponed too. Willing to wait, of course. If they are going to take a hard look at it, how about a few further changes? I would love to have a simple grid (maybe in faint grey) in the viewfinder, to help with composition and to line up horizons. I use the grid on the D2 and love it. I realise that some users would not like this, So maybe it could be an add-on you clip on the eyepiece. Possibly, this thing already exists. if it does, can someone let me know?

[sreidvt]

I returned the M8 that I received. I'm very comfortable with that decision. Today's statement from Leica brings great hope that it will only be a temporary loss.

 

Yesterday's news cycle, with the odd informal mesage sent by Leica through Sean about "let them buy filters," had left me very saddened about the likelyhood of ever owning an M8. ?

 

Hi Steven,

 

Thanks very much for your comments. Just one clarification, Leica did not send a message through me per se. They didn't contact me and say, "please publish this" etc. I contacted them and asked for an official response to my questions. They obliged.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[clayh]

I got a reply email response from Leica today in regard to the streaking and ghosting issues. It still does not make me regret the decision to return the camera, but it does give me hope that six months from now, it may be a viable option. It sounds like they are working the problem, which is really all you can ask.

 

Quote:

 

Currently we are working on a fix for the stripes and ghost effects. Please be shure that we will be able to help you and provide you with a camera, you can do your night shots.

But please be patient for at least the next two weeks so that we can enshure what the fix will be. In the meantime please do not use ISO settings above 640, you can do perfect available light photos like that!

 

Best Regards, Jesko v. Oeynhausen

Quality Management

[plasticman]

Hooray!!! Excellent news! REALLY REALLY EXCELLENT!!

 

D*mn i'm happy now!!!

 

:-)

 

Mine's a beer!

 

First time i've smiled while reading this forum the whole week!

 

//mani

[Peter41951]

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Steven. I echo your feelings (though I shall buy just the one).

[rfleica]

I got a reply email response from Leica today in regard to the streaking and ghosting issues. It still does not make me regret the decision to return the camera, but it does give me hope that six months from now, it may be a viable option. It sounds like they are working the problem, which is really all you can ask.

 

Quote:

 

Currently we are working on a fix for the stripes and ghost effects. Please be shure that we will be able to help you and provide you with a camera, you can do your night shots.

But please be patient for at least the next two weeks so that we can enshure what the fix will be. In the meantime please do not use ISO settings above 640, you can do perfect available light photos like that!

 

Best Regards, Jesko v. Oeynhausen

Quality Management

 

this is one of the most direct acknowledgements of the issues from leica. good news.

[bill_green]

I understand that a lot of people are rightfully upset about the M8 situation, but Leica acknowledging the problem and taking steps to fix it, in my opinion, put them light years ahead of Canon and Nikon. Perhaps that is the difference between a camera company and an electronics company.

[ptomsu]

I understand that a lot of people are rightfully upset about the M8 situation, but Leica acknowledging the problem and taking steps to fix it, in my opinion, put them light years ahead of Canon and Nikon. Perhaps that is the difference between a camera company and an electronics company.

 

I only can agree 200%, this was the right thing to do and they have my sympathy

 

Peter

[innerimager]

I got a reply email response from Leica today in regard to the streaking and ghosting issues. It still does not make me regret the decision to return the camera, but it does give me hope that six months from now, it may be a viable option. It sounds like they are working the problem, which is really all you can ask.

 

Quote:

 

Currently we are working on a fix for the stripes and ghost effects. Please be shure that we will be able to help you and provide you with a camera, you can do your night shots.

But please be patient for at least the next two weeks so that we can enshure what the fix will be. In the meantime please do not use ISO settings above 640, you can do perfect available light photos like that!

 

Best Regards, Jesko v. Oeynhausen

Quality Management

Except- I got major streaking at iso 640 at the photoplus show as I posted last week. But the important thing is they are on to it, openly, and I'm sure they'll get it right....Peter

[clayh]

In one of my tests, I got detectable streaking at ISO320. Even the ISO160 had some noise that could be seen. Hopefully, this particular problem is just a firmware issue.

 

Except- I got major streaking at iso 640 at the photoplus show as I posted last week. But the important thing is they are on to it, openly, and I'm sure they'll get it right....Peter

[graham_mitchell]

Why is anyone returning their cameras? Even if the fixes take a few months, won't the fixes be available to existing owners with cameras under warranty? In the meantime, the camera still takes excellent photos 99% of the time.

[harmsr]

Graham,

 

Take a look at some of the photos posted here on the the other threads. 99% good shots is not even close.

 

I own my film M and bought the M8 for the rangefinder style, size, and low light.

 

Most of my low-light shots do include a light which will cause banding. This even happens at ISO 320.

 

The magenta issue is always present to some extent, and you really can't fix it yet. I don't even have the partial temporary fix of the IR blocking filter, which does cause other color issues in the corners. This means that I can't rely on the camera for any shot which has to made. In that case, it stays home and I take a camera which will get the shot.

 

Therefore, for the very low percentage of shots that would not actually be affected by the banding, blobs, or magenta it doesn't get used since it is still in the box.

 

Ray

[ho_co]

Graham and Ray--

Just a suggestion: Let's avoid using percentages.

 

We really don't have an idea what percentage of a given photographer's work from the M8 is good. S Reid said as I recall that in 2500 images that he had shot, he had seen some kind of incipient problem only in less than a dozen.

 

Obviously most of the pictures we see on this site are going to show a defect. I'm not going to upload a picture of my R-D1 if it looks just fine, am I? Everyone would just complain it was a dumb shot.

 

For some photographers the percentage of good images will be high; for others it'll be lower. I went through my period of passive resistance and am planning to order the camera next week. But others will think I'm crazy.

 

One thing we can agree on: No one knows what percentage of images are going to be good till we start taking pictures with the M8.

 

Respectfully,

 

--HC

[clayh]

I agree. Between banding and IR/magenta problems, it is more like 99% of your pictures will have some problem requiring either a trash can or some photoshop gymnastics. It just needs to be fixed.

 

Graham,

 

Take a look at some of the photos posted here on the the other threads. 99% good shots is not even close.

 

I own my film M and bought the M8 for the rangefinder style, size, and low light.

 

Most of my low-light shots do include a light which will cause banding. This even happens at ISO 320.

 

The magenta issue is always present to some extent, and you really can't fix it yet. I don't even have the partial temporary fix of the IR blocking filter, which does cause other color issues in the corners. This means that I can't rely on the camera for any shot which has to made. In that case, it stays home and I take a camera which will get the shot.

 

Therefore, for the very low percentage of shots that would not actually be affected by the banding, blobs, or magenta it doesn't get used since it is still in the box.

 

Ray

[carstenw]

I agree. Between banding and IR/magenta problems, it is more like 99% of your pictures will have some problem requiring either a trash can or some photoshop gymnastics. It just needs to be fixed.

Only if you take pictures of black velvet and include the spots in every shot. You had one, didn't you? Were 99% of your pictures affected? They sure aren't on mine. Not even 10% (which is still high, admittedly, but many of the affected pictures were great anyway).

[marknorton]

It's good to realise that it's not just synthetic black materials radiating IR light like a beacon. It's everywhere, to varying intensities and wavelengths, and some owners are reporting a general improvement in image quality using a filter which can be put down to the removal of an out-of-focus IR "fuzz" over the whole image.

[amedick]

As per the original question......

 

A friend and I are both holding off purchasing M8 and lenses until the solution is clearer. Neither of us is upset, though we are both disappointed that we may not have the camera in hand before xmas.

 

One interesting observation, from the examples of the problems on this bulletin board, you see how far the image have come with the M and M8 sytem, a step change.......now the question is removing the "artifacts" associated with this step change.

 

My point of view, is that it is early to tell how easily this can be solved. Give the "experts" some breathing space to hammer out the solutions.

 

John

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[clayh]

Yeah, I had one. Now Leica has it back. My point was that even using the Capture One profiles, virtually every image I took needed some post-conversion photoshop tweaking to get the color balance looking 'right'. Now we understand that the problem stems from the IR sensitivity of the chip. This is in contrast to my Canon 5D, which, when using Capture One, gives me quite nice images that require photoshop color balance tweaking only if I want to do something 'arty'.

 

My point is and will always be that this camera was targeted in price and capabilities at the accomplished and knowledgeable photographic user. Paying $5000 and getting a camera that requires more post-shot intervention than a $200 point and shoot is an insult. And this is in the best of circumstances, the banding was fatal to a shot. My daughter has a Leica C-lux that I have used occasionally. Now THAT is a camera. It works right out of the box in a predictable way. Imagine!

 

Only if you take pictures of black velvet and include the spots in every shot. You had one, didn't you? Were 99% of your pictures affected? They sure aren't on mine. Not even 10% (which is still high, admittedly, but many of the affected pictures were great anyway).