Phase One have bought Leaf

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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I'm just guessing their thoughts, I'm not saying they will be successful. I do think Phaseone and Hasleblad will give them a very very hard time.

 

Only time will tell.

 

Jeff

 

Exactly Jeff this market is so small Hassy and Phase will fight tooth and nail to hold any market share they have right now. leica will not have a free ride in this market like they do with the M and the 35mm market is even worse with Canon and Nikon. Just not so sure the exclusive Leica product which honestly we all love is valid in the world today. Sure some will buy no question but I reside in a huge real estate growing market and even the 12 million dollar homes are going for 7 million and still hard to unload. So it is hitting the top tier folks hard as well and the middle class like I would guess most folks here are heck we are worried about losing our jobs and the massive layoffs going on. Here in the US we are not getting out of this very soon and i don't care what side of the political fence you sit. I think we all agree we are in for a long ride to get out of it.

 

Geez this is depressing for a early Sunday morning, think i will go read the sports page. LOL

 

And your absolutely right Jeff only time will tell. Have a great Sunday

[sdai]

Exclusive in down economic times is certain death and for Pro's like myself price will be a major limiting factor when everyone is downsizing and fighting for every inch of business. Don't let anyone fool ya , business sucks for the working Pro right now. EVERYONE's business is in limbo. I have yet to talk to any working Pro right now that can honestly say business is good and I mean almost everyone. Scary times and after 35 years shooting I NEVER seen business this bad on a whole. Whats worse is our clients are settling for less and that becomes a standard.

 

Exclusivity is always a big deal for collectors and such ... but a camera itself is not a piece of jewel or art, its core value always lies in its functionality and use. As a toy or tool it can always be rebuilt, reproduced therefore it has no collection value.

 

And we are talking about thousands, or potentially tens of thousands of "identical" cameras, there's absolutely no exclusivity at all. If I'm after something exclusive, it better has only one copy custom made for myself.

 

I collect a lot of stuff too but have never bothered with any machine-type or trade tools alike.

 

When it comes to digital ... nothing could retain its "face value", and there's no hope that your "investment" could appreciate over time.

 

How much are those early H backs worth? do you still want to pay $20k for a Kodak DCS? LOL

 

It could make a good case to pay $30k for a picture shot with the S2, but the S2 is all about a couple of months joy of fondling, I'm sure many amateurs alike will dump them on eBay before the next greatest gadget shows up.

[scaryink]

Sounds like time for a joint venture between all the MF producers. The JV could be dissolved at some future point if MF has a miraculous recovery. The sharing of the huge R&D costs would go a long way in helping survive in such a fast paced shifting environment.

 

Joint design approaches seem questionable but are being used by a significant number of manufactures in todays market. Look at all the joint auto development products between competing manufacturers.

[georg]

When the 39MP-backs came out, they had to pay approx. 5000$ for the sensor alone, I'm not sure about todays prices!?

 

"Exclusivity is always a big deal for collectors and such ... but a camera itself is not a piece of jewel or art, its core value always lies in its functionality and use. As a toy or tool it can always be rebuilt, reproduced therefore it has no collection value."

 

Well, the S2 isn't meant as a collectors piece, it's technology and functionality is unique. Right now we can only speculate about it's true performance, but everybody who went into technical details and handled the prototypes knows about it's potencial.

 

"Why would Phase bother with it, Georg?"

 

Because the Hy6 was/is the newest and most sophisticated MF-system around, based on a well-known system/lens-lineup (although, it wasn't well known in the States). FH incorporated several highly skilled employees, who designed and manufactured unique mf-cameras ahead of their time (they also had a digital back in 1992 - too early for the market). They needed years to get the tolerances right for this very open/modular design and they finally made it - it would take years to find another comapny to build a Hy6-like-design for Phase or Sinar. Without FH, the Hy6 is DEAD, even when the basic patents are owned by Jenoptik.

Instead, Phase bought the cheapest MF-system they could find (their mother-company basically threw them away - like Leaf) - Mamiya had some nice cameras/lenses (I loved the M7!), but they never were top-notch. It's an old system - they are not even capable of making central shutters - Rollei has 1/1000s (and large 1/500s) direct-driven-carbon-central-shutters since over a decade! I'm sure it's capable of decent results with a P45+ or P65+, but the Hy6 was a different beast.

 

And all that just because of some stupid short-sighted banks, they cut credits, take away money from companies with potencial - it's not too difficult to read between the lines (what happened with FH). I'm so sick of this shareholder-value- and what is called in German "Scheinwirtschaft"-crap damaging economy, ecology, society and technology on a gigantic scale since decades!

[ptomsu]

As a potential buyer of a digital MF system I can only say that the 2 real vendors I had in my eyes after close investigation of the available products were and still are Phase and Hasselblad. My tendency is more towards Phase, as their solution gives much more flexibility if it comes to the use of MFDBs on tech cameras.

 

I almost excluded Leica S2 already, as this is a too closed system and will never allow me to use a tech camera, which is what I defined to need.

 

Now WRT Leaf I looked into their products and also the Hy6 but I pretty soon identified this direction to be wrong for me. Mainly because of the SW behind Leaf. And the heavy and bulky Hy6 - which is no doubt a great camera, but simply an overkill for me and much too big!

 

Did Phase need Leaf? Folks, just be serious, I think NOT out of technical reason, simply because they know how to handle Dalsa sensors (see their P65+ and P40+ backs, which already are the clear market leaders and produce wonderful files) and also because they have the much superior SW with C1Pro. The only reason for them making sense to buy is to get rid of a competitor and bring the remaining Leaf customers in their camp.

 

Is this good? Sure, because I am putting all my eggs in the Phase basket and can be assured now to count on the right vendor. Bad because less competition also means that prices could remain high. But I trust that Phase will aggressively try to lower prices on their products even further in order to come into the less €10k range for back, camera and body.

 

Will this be good for the S2? I guess it is the first sign of death for this system. Too late, too exclusive nd with no SW behind it is in pretty big trouble. Which I already said several months ago. Now time and evolution in the MF market prove me right.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Have to say Peter was just at my workshop and got to play with all of the Phase backs, P30+, P40+, P45+ and the P65+ backs along with a Cambo WRS 1000 tech camera and a Phase body with many lenses. He also brought along his Sony 900 which i barely seen him use. LOL

 

He fell in love with shooting the backs with the ability to go tech camera or Phase body plus being able to switch out backs and try different options. Personally i never got the chance to shoot anything but my p30+ back the whole time. All the demo backs were in use every time we are out shooting. But it was fun to watch folks get to play with these things and get some real joy out of shooting them but more impressive was seeing there faces when looking at the files. It's a whole different league than anything else when viewing the images.

 

Here's a thread if interested in reading on MF and other camera's as well. We had a lot on board

 

The great GetDPI Northern Arizona Workshop - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

[AlanG]

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Will this be good for the S2? I guess it is the first sign of death for this system. Too late, too exclusive nd with no SW behind it is in pretty big trouble. Which I already said several months ago. Now time and evolution in the MF market prove me right.

 

I too would find the use of an MF back on a tech camera more appealing. (Although I find stitching 35mm is the way to go for me.) But I wouldn't be so quick to write off the S2. I think the S2 will appeal to some pros but the real market may be well healed enthusiasts. A lot of these people are already buying MF digital systems and may find the S2 works for them as they are not product or architectural photographers.

 

It is too early to tell.

 

Hey Guy. I checked out the shots from your workshop. Very nice images but... shooting those scenes is like shooting fish in a barrel. Why not come out to Washington DC and do an urban version?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

LOL yes for me it is like shooting ducks in a pond. LOL

 

May have to take you up on that.

 

Actually though the slot canyon was a real B______!

 

To many people bumping into each other.

[georg]

Most MF-users don't use technical cameras - but if this is an important aspect of your work, a "classical" MFDB would be propably better than the S2.

 

What would happen anyway when the S2 is mounted on the back of a technical camera?

 

- How do the microlenses affect the results (a question to 33x44mm-MFDB-users, too)?

 

- Digitars & Rodenstock HR take the cover glasses of the sensors into account, they even need a special element to be used with film. As far as I know, the S2 uses a different cover glass (IR-absorption integrated?) which propably doesn't work very well with these lenses?

 

- The DALSA-spec-sheet compared the new microlenses (of a 48MP-sensor, most likely the same technology is used in the P40+) to the previous generation. Is this effect noticeable with symmetric WA-lenses or movements (less vignetting?)?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

No micro lenses on the P40+. The only back with Micro lenses currently in Phase lineup is the P30+ which cannot be used on a tech camera nor could the S2 if it actually could because it also uses micro lenses as well. I should really say I could use the P30+ on a tech camera but i could not shift it without getting a color shift.

[georg]

So they really need T&S-lenses but on the other hand, about 1 stop more sensitivity due microlenses is also not bad, either... But most pros won't have this choice, whether you need technical movements or you don't.

So there is no camera actually using the new microlenses from the 48MP-Dalsa?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Not that I know of Georg. I went for the extra ISO stop myself. Now the P40+ and the s2 are interesting with the binning down. I tested the P40+ and the results where quite good with regards to noise. 1600 was very clean but 3200 was just okay. As expected , CCD sensors no matter what brand without AA filters in place will have those noise limits. Just no getting around it but I really like the P30+ 1600 files and the new binning down sensors are very interesting.

[Joseph S. Wisniewski]

Most MF-users don't use technical cameras - but if this is an important aspect of your work, a "classical" MFDB would be propably better than the S2.

 

What would happen anyway when the S2 is mounted on the back of a technical camera?

You'd be forced to use annoyingly long telephoto lenses.

 

The sensor of the S2 would end up about 65mm (estimated flange to sensor distance of S2) farther back than with a MF back. What's the shortest length of a technical camera when extended enough to actually be able to use movements? 100mm? So you're talking at least 165mm, or 3x the diagonal of the S2. Telephoto macro only.

 

While a Blad with its interesting tilt/shift system can shoot lenses as short as 0.7x the diagonal, and Nikon and Canon both sell 1x diagonal 45mm macros.

 

- How do the microlenses affect the results (a question to 33x44mm-MFDB-users, too)?

Believe it or not, they don't.

 

However, MF sensors have a lot of non-microlens problems when shifted, like radial color shifts, and the sudden reappearance of the sensor stitch lines, which the camera firmware only "hides" with unshifted, centered lenses.

- Digitars & Rodenstock HR take the cover glasses of the sensors into account,

Hype. The numerical aperture isn't high enough to need to be compensated for cover glass thickness. That's only a problem on fast lenses.

 

As I recall, Brian Caldwell's and my simulations differed by a factor of two: I think it's a problem at NA = 0.4 (around f1.1) and I think he got NA = 0.8 (somewhere around f0.6). The LF lenses are around NA = 0.1, safe as houses.