AndyME Posted November 10, 2006 Share #41 Posted November 10, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am afraid if you try the trick on the RD-1 with the blue foam http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8881-purple-rd1-shot-m8-2.html it does not work...i think that demonstrates that is very difficult to "backward engineer" a problem that has a very different origin than the solution method employed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 10, 2006 Posted November 10, 2006 Hi AndyME, Take a look here Magenta? treat like moire. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andrewrossphotographs Posted November 10, 2006 Share #42 Posted November 10, 2006 Thanks for this, this re-affirms what I saw yesterday from a bad monitor profile: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8982-magenta-virus.html Initially I thought the "magenta fix" was only going to be a hardware fix solution, but it all looks like very screwy WB firmware which hasn't been fully released...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter41951 Posted November 10, 2006 Share #43 Posted November 10, 2006 I agree, the black in the shots of the leica is just dead. It looks like what handcoloring used to look like on black and white prints. But anyone is welome to work in this manner. Robert, this is supposed to be a way for those who already have the camera to rescue a shot that otherwise would be lost. It is not supposed to be a permament fix. In case there is any doubt, when I buy my M8 I expect not to have to do this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter41951 Posted November 10, 2006 Share #44 Posted November 10, 2006 I am afraid if you try the trick on the RD-1 with the blue foam http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8881-purple-rd1-shot-m8-2.html it does not work...i think that demonstrates that is very difficult to "backward engineer" a problem that has a very different origin than the solution method employed. I had a look at the original and the attempts to correct, but passed on trying that one myself as it seems to have been improved as far as it could. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 10, 2006 Share #45 Posted November 10, 2006 well, I would certainly like to see how the filters work.If they do ot degrade the image, and prevents the magenta, I am all or it. Guy, did you have a chance to try the filters? Anyone? The first examples were not promising. Hi Victor, Which examples are those? The Tiffens? Guy and I each have B+W 486 filters arriving tomorrow AM. I may not have time to post tests before leaving on a trip for a shoot but Guy may be able to. I'll be doing an article about them and will also post comparisons here. BTW, whatever the pros and cons of this method may be, kudos to you for trying to put your energy something that could be useful for us. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyME Posted November 10, 2006 Share #46 Posted November 10, 2006 I had a look at the original and the attempts to correct, but passed on trying that one myself as it seems to have been improved as far as it could. So just go ahead... after all the idea was to simply pick into the magenta and then desaturate...here it does not work at all... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share #47 Posted November 10, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear Sean I remember seeing an IR filtered image on ONE of these threads but I can't remember which. There are so MANY! I'll hunt, but it left a residual. Also, why are you going for the interference filters. Off angle they can still let IR and UV thru isnt a straight 489 better (the 1.2 factor cant hurt that much and the color balance well cant be more than couple hundred degrees off and the DMR is that much. Anyway, I welcome the tests with the 486 regards Victor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
osera Posted November 10, 2006 Share #48 Posted November 10, 2006 Victor's PS suggestions are not meant, I don't think, to get Leica "off the hook," but to provide a limited work-around in some situations. It would not substitute for the Real Thing. Here's another example with a snapshot of a speaker that has a black wood surface and a black cloth. In the second, I used Select>Color range, with a fairly narrow fuzziness, building up the selection with 2 or 3 clicks, then creating a hue/sat adjustment layer which will use the color selection as a mask, then desaturating with that adjustment layer. Basically the same, but a little more complicated, especially if you're not into PS. With PS experience, takes just a few seconds. If you were in the mood, you could fiddle around with the mask for a few seconds to protect other areas. Obviously this is a very VERY simple example, lots different than a room full of tuxedos. Thanks for bringing up this topic. (picture made with 35lux and the SF24D flash) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/8823-magenta-treat-like-moire/?do=findComment&comment=89136'>More sharing options...
dannirr Posted November 10, 2006 Share #49 Posted November 10, 2006 Now I'm kinda happy I only ordered an M8 couple days ago. Perhaps by the time I get it (Jan - Feb) this will have been fixed. There is simply no exuse for a $5000 professional tool to be this poor in color reproduction. Danni Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted November 10, 2006 Share #50 Posted November 10, 2006 I'd like to thank Victor, Peter J. and the others adding to this topic. I had been thinking to myself during all the IR turmoil, that I know how to PP that, but didn't have any examples of my own to try. I use Picture Windows Pro and downloaded Peter J's Mamiya picture. It took a few seconds to fix the problem with color correction in Pwp. So, to say, "WOW what a difference it makes", here is the absolute difference between the original and the corrected image to show where the corrections were made. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! BTW, I have encountered this in the past from a Coolpix 5000, but because I was a digi-beginer, I thought it was my fault. It at least got me to learn this tool in PP, which has com in handy for mix lighting nightmares. I should be able to make my very own examples this weekend:D Thanks for something to play with in the meantime. Bob Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! BTW, I have encountered this in the past from a Coolpix 5000, but because I was a digi-beginer, I thought it was my fault. It at least got me to learn this tool in PP, which has com in handy for mix lighting nightmares. I should be able to make my very own examples this weekend:D Thanks for something to play with in the meantime. Bob ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/8823-magenta-treat-like-moire/?do=findComment&comment=89167'>More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 10, 2006 Share #51 Posted November 10, 2006 God love ya all for all the attempts to salvage the problem. Unfortunately, if I produced fixes like this for my clientele, it wouldn't so much be a "work around" ... but more like "out of work". I think it's clear that a lot of wedding and event shooters are interested in this camera. Quite frankly, even if the PS technique did look good (which IMO it doesn't ), who would pay $5,000. for the privilege of even more hours at the computer doing a mindless, uncreative task such as this? A recent wedding I shot had 16 attendants in the wedding party. It was a large picture package that produced over a thousand images. Close to half of those images had the attendants in them. This is what they were wearing ... imagine the tux also tinted magenta ... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/8823-magenta-treat-like-moire/?do=findComment&comment=89168'>More sharing options...
abrewer Posted November 10, 2006 Share #52 Posted November 10, 2006 A recent wedding I shot had 16 attendants in the wedding party. It was a large picture package that produced over a thousand images. Close to half of those images had the attendants in them. This is what they were wearing ... imagine the tux also tinted magenta ... Truly a nightmare Marc. I wouldn't want to do it with thirty shots from Sunday morning walkabout, to be honest. Leica's got to find a fix for this...and fast. Thanks. Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted November 10, 2006 Share #53 Posted November 10, 2006 Truly a nightmare Marc. I wouldn't want to do it with thirty shots from Sunday morning walkabout, to be honest. Leica's got to find a fix for this...and fast. Thanks. Allan Hi Allan, I agree that PP work arounds are not anymore answer than the IR filter idea, especially for the pro with clients asking from them, what we are asking from Leica. I do think for the hobbyists who are wondering if they should cancel their order and will encounter the problems less frequently, these kinds of solutions and the polarizing tip from davida can be just what we need to regain some equilibrium. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share #54 Posted November 10, 2006 to the casual eye it might seem quite dramatic "oooo, how can I keep that magenta if I needed to take magenta out of the tux" The fact is, those colors are likely nowhere near, really, to magenta in the tux, in terms of the 65,000 colors available. The issue color is quite narrow in spectrum. get a shot with the magenta tux and the reddish stuff and lets see I am hardly interested in selling my solution, frankly, (to paraphrase a famous actress) "I don't give a damn!" But while Leica works on a permanent fix, there will be Hand wringers and worriers... Nay sayers... and M8 enjoyers!!! guess which I am :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 10, 2006 Share #55 Posted November 10, 2006 Dear Jamie If this were a development step in C1 you would do in ONE shot and apply to all. It would likely not even be noticed in the normal DNG>tiff development The only time you woud change is when the lightchanges, andyou DO make SOME adjustments, no? or you shoot jpg? Victor, No, I shoot RAW, and probably haven't processed as many as JRG, I've still processed tens of thousands of files through C1. I think I know what I'm doing with it. It takes long enough to proof a good wedding; between myself and my partner, we have to go through thousands of shots. And while I know what you're doing in PS, I'm not sure how you could make this happen in C1, actually, since you can't select what you're going to act upon. There's no masking possible there. If you're saying the problem magenta is absolutely distinguishable from other magentas, and so you never have to mask, and you could do this adequately with a profile, well, I'd say I'll believe that when I see it. Your initial results, with bleeding in the margins, seem to suggest that the range of magenta is more than you think it is. In the meantime, I believe that a tweaked C1 profile might help as a workaround, yes; but that's going to depend entirely on the range of color that gets shifted from black, and probably only good for a range of lighting conditions. Don't get me wrong, thanks for showing people who shoot low numbers of files how replace color works. Personally, I'd probably do this in LAB space, but that's just me (I don't want to change the L when doing this kind of work). And I know you're not trying to let Leica off the hook--so let's not let them off the hook! Forget the $300 point and shoot and naysaying: this is a perfectly valid question to ask of a very expensive digicam. Why should I have to do any of this when I don't with my DMR, 1d2, 1ds2 or 5d? These are the cameras we should be comparing. My gosh--if Canon released a new camera that did this some people on the forum here would be gloating for years! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 10, 2006 Share #56 Posted November 10, 2006 Yes, last I heard, 3500 seconds was less than one hour! and it is certainly your choice. If you find a shoter workflow, with as good results, whywouldn't you go that route I am only trying to get the M8 liking 'hand wringers' to reconsider! :-) Hey Victor--yes, 3500 seconds is less than an hour--it's only just over 58 minutes Best case. Not tweaking anything. I'm not wringing my hands at all. My money is still down on one of these. I've been holding off saying what I really think, because I don't want people to think I'm overly negative here. In other words, I don't want to encourage the hand-wringers either. But this situation does make me a little bit nuts. I really want to see the official acknowledgement and technical roadmap for fixing this--really fixing this--as we all do, because I want to use this for professional use. Got the Leica newsletter today: nothing I could see about this or any other issue. So let's be clear. For me, "post" post processing for basic neutrals from RAW is not like dealing with edge conditions, like noise, or moire, which happens occasionally and can be adequately fixed or tolerated in a fine print. In those 10s of thousands of shots, I've had to correct for moire exactly twice. I didn't have to do it at all for proofing. So the some blacks = magenata situation, to me, is just not the same at all. For a wedding shooter in colour, this will be a complete time-sink, and more analogous to a camera that for some reason can't be white balanced under reasonably common conditions. What drives me even crazier is the suggestion, by Leica, that the edge performance of the lenses was somehow a design trade-off here: that Leica knowingly did this!? I'm sorry, that seems like a bad joke with a terrible punchline. You've got a 1.3 crop sensor on some of the finest lenses in the world already; you're using the good part of the lens, and even compensating for optical vignetting. So from what we've read from Leica, they're saying with a slightly more IR-efficient (thicker) filter, it would make them unsharp in the corners? You'd get birefringeance (a little magenta fringing) on highlights? I don't know. Sounds to me like they either didn't spend enough on the filter (more efficient, not thicker--don't even know if that's possible) OR the whole idea isn't ready for prime time (though the fact the RD1 doesn't do this makes me very suspicious that it's the first, not the second, factor. And I think I'd rather have little purple highlights than huge magenta blacks, though no-one but Leica knows just how bad the birefringeance might be or just how unsharp those cropped edges would be. Personally, I think the only hope for a firmware fix is that there may be a lot more to the chipset than we know about (including some software tweaking of colour palette or IR reading or something) and that someone at Leica / Jenoptics forgot to throw a switch. Let's hope so. In the meantime, I will get the camera still if people with the furshligguner filters say they work and Leica comes clean on a real solution (which I still believe they will, BTW). But I won't spend extra hours on proofing basic stuff, though. That's a price my clients shouldn't have to bear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_peter_m Posted November 10, 2006 Share #57 Posted November 10, 2006 You all might find this interesting http://www.underexposure.com/index.php?page=irtest just got posted in an other thread on here http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9045-ir-effects-rd-1-other-cameras.html#post89460 Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 10, 2006 Share #58 Posted November 10, 2006 Peter-- Thanks for the link. Not being a Nikon digital shooter, and not owning an RD1, I didn't know they suffered from this too. Ok--so is the RD1 just showing what happens with digital rangefinders? And I'm just curious--does anyone know why the original Nikon SLR suffered from this filtration flaw, since they weren't under the space constraints of the rangefinders? Did they have a Kodak sensor at the time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fnuernberger Posted November 10, 2006 Share #59 Posted November 10, 2006 Leica is a lame duck already. If they don't come up with a good solution to this by mid next-week, they can begin to file for bankruptcy. It is quite a desaster not to have noticed these two serious IQ problems - which appear in excactly those situations which this camera is built for: low light with a couple of highlights (streaking) with a lot of people wearing black. If that was my company I would IMMEDIATELY fire the guys responsible for development / final testing, apologize to my customers and offer a complete and generous solution: Recall for all delivered M8 cameras - fit them with an IR-filter and some solution to the streaking. In addition, I would offer a 800 Euro rebate for any 28/2.8 for those who had those troubles. In case I wasn't wable to technically deliver a solution, well, then I'd offer to buy back the M8 cameras, close the digital unit and scale the company down to be a film-based mechanical niche operator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter L Posted November 10, 2006 Share #60 Posted November 10, 2006 It seems that there is not an easy fix for the IR or some blacks are magenta problems, the corrections that I have seen posted here look horrible. I have been selling some of my equipment to make room and pay for the M8, now however, I feel myself drawn towards the D5, for the moment I am going to give Leica a pass. It is astounding in my opinion that Leica engineers who lived with the thing day and night, and 2 reviewers,(one to be paid for reviewer) did not indentifiy this very obvious problem, I can't help but think that this problem was purposely overlooked, I can just not imagen that they didn't notice this problem. I was looking forward to shooting Leica again, I have owned lots of Leica cameras and glass over the years and I favor that style of shooting, however, ultimately it is image quality that counts(that is why we pay the big bucks) and today Leica does not seem to be able to deliver that . I feel sorry for those that have already purchased the M8, to have to go through the agony if dealing with this problem, and I would advise them to send it back, as I would have done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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