Back into the box it goes ... : -(

[clive]

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I am so glad that I have read this (and other such posts) before my name rises to the top of the delivery list at my camera dealer’ I am going to postpone delivery until this has been resolved acceptably.

 

Again, I really appreciate you posting this.

Regards

C.

 

Clive J. Mealey Photography

[brucek]

I would like to see someone put 720 filter on the M8 to see what it's NIR black and white images look like. If they come out looking great that would be something beneficial for me. When not shooting NIR I would just throw a filter on the front to block anything higher then 800 nanometers.

 

I have tried that and the M8 is far more sensitive to IR than any other unmodified digital camera I've tried. Far more so than the R-D1. I didn't save the shots but as soon as we get some sun I'll try to take some more and post one or two.

 

Bruce

[alexr]

I need it to work and like anything else i will figure it out , that is what i get paid to do. You don't want one fine you have that right but some of us set ourselves up to be working tomorrow with this camera .

Guy, i am in your position (lots $$ invested in the glass, wanna use the camera immediately) and that is precisely why i am so disappointed. Whining? Is it whining to expect my new 5000$ investment to reproduce blacks correctly, something which all other cameras seem to be able to do? You are gonna fix it yourself come hell or high water...good on you. Call me lazy but for the amount of cash involved I do not wish to stay up nights to create profiles and workarounds. I am a photographer not a camera-computer technician. Is it whining to expect a professional tool to be usable -professionally- out of the box?

 

If Nikon or Canon had put out a pro-product with such issues they would have been crucified. I respectfully think that perhaps the problem is that the Leica universe is filled with too many yes-men and too few whiners.

 

Ps: I am paid to take photographs. I am not paid to fix cameras which don't work well. That is the manufacturers job. My job is to buy the right camera and use it.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Alex i don't disagree , just frustrated by all this. I woke up this morning and almost just went and bought another DMR . I had 4 M8's almost in my hands yesterday and lost out on all 4. Even placed a 9700 dollar order at B&H and turns out they did not have any and gave up on the other two, i keep hearing that nagging voice in my ear. I do get one tomorrow maybe i should just get some real work done and stop reading about the issues.

[msr]

Marc, your shots were a real eye opener. I actually shoot portraits with a black velvet backgound.

I was just about to sell off my Canon L glass to fund my M8 but will now keep the lenses & have postponed delivery of my M8 until this issue is resolved.

[vic vic]

some high-end digital manufacturers call their not fully ready product alpha and then beta. the photographers and the customers who hold it - they are called alpha modela user/customer, beta modeal user/customer.

if i had ordered the m8 i would get mad if it is not fully functional. why... cause 1. u paid money for superior product. 2. when u do work/project u have great resposibility towards yourslef, your client, the creative team that is envolved and trust u that u will make live all the ideas developed.

 

mark (norton)... im also with great hope and wishes that lieca will come at some point with superior product... my love to leica is well know here and any place i go.

 

and alex ya... the clock is ticking.. actually the first clock started to tick with the high iso performance issue. and the second clock now with the realibility and trust issues that marc demostrated. with marc's demonstration, this is the first time i react to photographic performance of m8. previously i have avoided it because i dont know who made the photos, how they made it, what are their digital workflow abilities. (except sean reid). but from what i know about marc (from this forum comment exchanges and talks and his work) i do trust him... and that what makes me really disapointing about m8.

 

the clock of high iso performance is ticking because i dont want good and nice camera. i want leica camera and what i expect from it. some people relate to noise as if is tri-x... i dont know wether to smile when i hear it or to get angry... leica legend.. wars, leica camera and tri-x in it... so noise is our new tri-x..... this is me that must be blind and i dont see who similar is noise to the tri-x. well maybe because i use hp5 and i "dont know the character of tri-x" :-)))) oh, on the same note we have also comparisons between lenses on the tiy internet files that are not scanned proffessionally. the tiny interent file is perfect to show the superior performance of ASPH lenses :-)))))))))

 

what do u sell..... ??? hype product (to those who want "tri-x-like" noisy photograph and infered-film-like photo) or a superior product like one should expect from leica and will be glad to pay for it????

[alexr]

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Guy, I know. I have my down payment and have been reading the posts every day. One is most critical of the things one most admires...The thing is we were all so excited and eager and now it feels like our much dreamt-of sweetheart has some ugly warts. Thanks to Marc's images (thank-you Marc, really) I think we are all a little scared that the M8 becomes the new M5. And none of us have the time or willingness to wait for the m9-m6. At least you have your DMR which seems a great performer. Lets just hope they can fix it quickly. I just wished the Company were more forthcoming on their ideas for a solution. it would be a sign of respect for their customers-supporters. Surely no other camera maker in the world has such faithful followers. We deserve something for this, I believe.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I can think of free lens coding and no limits on how many:D

[frc]

Perhaps this is where we are getting the picture about the Leica tradition of postponing release dates. Only speculating, could it be that the renewal of management has something to do with the release of an unfinnished, or at least not fully tested camera.

There is a presentation of the camera in Amsterdam in two weeks. I'll go there to have a look at the physical proportions of the cam but also to let the shop know that despite being on their waiting list, I'm not buying until these bugs have been solved.

This whole thing is so un Leica.

[reddawn]

I can think of free lens coding and no limits on how many:D

 

Guy, did u buy ur M lenses new or second hand?

 

12k of lenses is a lot to plonk down on a system which u have not used before. Now it's not my place to teach u how to run your biz (and u're obviously making much more than me ), but it doesn't make a lot of business sense to me, esp since u've already mastered the DMR and getting excellent results with it and u have to give up the second DMR backup body.

 

I hope ur M8 comes soon! For me, I'm gonna wait it out till the issues are resolved.... hopefully soon.......

[reddawn]

 

If Nikon or Canon had put out a pro-product with such issues they would have been crucified. I respectfully think that perhaps the problem is that the Leica universe is filled with too many yes-men and too few whiners.

 

I agree that if it were Canon or Nikon who are doing this, the whiners, including Leica lovers would have a field day ostracising them.

 

Leica users are a long suffering lot...and I include myself in that!

[newyorkone]

This whole thing is so un Leica.

 

A digital M was "un-Leica" until recently. They are sailing into very uncharted territory with the M8.

 

With that in mind, let's let Leica take a real shot at proving themselves here...the camera has only been out a week or maybe even less. My bet is on them working this out but the key is to give them the adequate breathing room to do so.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, did u buy ur M lenses new or second hand?

 

12k of lenses is a lot to plonk down on a system which u have not used before. Now it's not my place to teach u how to run your biz (and u're obviously making much more than me ), but it doesn't make a lot of business sense to me, esp since u've already mastered the DMR and getting excellent results with it and u have to give up the second DMR backup body.

 

I hope ur M8 comes soon! For me, I'm gonna wait it out till the issues are resolved.... hopefully soon.......

 

 

The second body did a lot of sitting around so the M8 decision was more to relieve some of it's duties and also act as a travel tool and personal i never take photo's of my kids or personal stuff becuase it is a roller bag full of junk tool. So I am looking for something lighter and less mass and still get DMR files ergo the M8. It is a perfect setup 2 complete systems. I bough most of my lenses used . Even the R they are used. hell i can' pay new prices on a 6 k 180 F2. No way. Also leica is the perfect used lens to buy. They don't wear out.

 

BTW 12k is nothing for 9 Leica lenses, most are like brand new and 2 are new

[LADP]

Let's be honest here: we are being calm and ultra-positive about this problem only because we love the red dot.

and

 

Sooo disappointed. This is not a little IR filter problem. This is a disaster. And the response from Leica is a disaster too.

are statements that are at odds with eachother. I'm not trying to single anyone out here, but I am surprised at the rush to judgement that many here are displaying.

 

Leica has a lot riding on the M8. You can be sure that they are looking into the issues being discovered with it. It is an entirely new camera design despite it's physical similarity to previous M models. To say that Leica brought the product to market too soon is an easy assessment made from armchairs. Perhaps they missed some isues with the camera before shipping them, but gain, this is a completely new design. I would doubt that they shipped the camera with full knowledge of the problems that are being discovered. As for their silence up until now, I think that is a responsible manner to deal with the issues. Why make a statement before you fully know the source of the problem, and the best possible solution for it?

 

Leica is a great company with extremely high technical standards, and they will certainly address the problems when they are able to. They have a reputation to uphold, and a rich tradition and history. They won't throw that away by ignoring any problems with the M8.

 

For those who have bought and received their cameras, it is unfortunate if you feel that the issues with it will prevent you from accomplishing your intended objectives with it. It seems you have a couple of options here. You can alert Leica to the matter, and either wait to see what the response is, or simply return the camera until they have solved the issues to your stisfaction. For those who have not yet bought the camera but are on the list to receive one, you may wish to wait to take delivery of your camera until you are satsfied that the problems have been addressed and corrected.

 

One point I'd like to make is that the magenta problem displayed in Mark's M8 may not represent all M8's. While there does appear to be an IR problem that is evident in certain black reproduction in the design, the particular examples in Mark's tests are relatively extreme. It would be interesting to see if another M8 body produces the same extreme magenta skewing under his exact test conditions. It is possible that his M8 exhibits the problem more severely than others, isn't it? I'm not arguing that this is the case, but I am pointing out that there are many possibilities, and complete conclusive tests have not yet been done to determine exactly what is going on.

 

Finally, regarding the panic about what if Leica went under, all I have to say is that that fate is far from being realized, and even if it did happen one day, I would argue that the value of your Leica glass would only become MORE valuable, not less. In time, other manufacturers would continue to design and manufacture RF bodies for the existing M line of lenses. Look at the Epson RD-1 and the Voigtlander Bessa series for examples.

 

I urge everyone to take a deep breath and give the great company that we all love a chance to resolve the issues coming to light with regard to the M8.

[frc]

Hi Anthony,

 

 

Yes thanks, I'm comfortable sitting in my armchair.

A lot of people I guess in Solms are dying for one.

Although your words make sence, I still do think, taking in account the severe nature of the failures of the M8 the camera has been released to early.

It is difficult to believe that the engineers have not had a clue about the possibilities of these problems arising.

Pressure from the sales department to not postpone the delevery date is only an assumption, but not very unlikely in my opinion.

 

 

Fr.

[Guest Bernd Banken]

there is an easy but costly option when the issue with the sensor will not help:

 

new lenses with a special coating of the end-lens to block spoiling rays...

 

cheers

Bernd

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What many of also need to realize in Marc's test with studio storbes that there is a lot of IR light from them and also the modeling lamps, not trying to downplay it at all becuase obviously the studio lighting is not working but we have to think about your use also. Will you always run into this or will it be a issues at all. i got to thinking my one purpose for this camera is to shoot event work with a Metz , now i can put a IR block filter on the Metz and stop some of that IR from getting out to begin with. Of course there is ambient light also to deal with but as they are getting the fix ready , there maybe some things we can do to get us by. Not ideal i realize but figuring out a working solution is not a bad thought

[georg]

I'm using my M8 since saturday.

I've made about 500 pictures and to be honest - I wouldn't have noticed any of the flaws mentioned. I don't use more than 640ASA because of noise and none of these pictures showed visible banding. And I've shot no black textiles until I've tried it with a photo of the M8-bag...

 

You're right, I also don't understand why Leica released the camera - I now that the real problems magically occur after the product is given to the customers, even when you've tested it for years - ask anyone working on those things, ask the people starting a 1Billion€ spacecraft and failing...

 

 

"the high iso performance issue"

 

Noise perfomance up to 800ASA (I shoot with -1/3EV) is up to the very best cameras available - everything else is only for extreme situations - you can't shoot 1600ASA in critical situations with a 5D, too. I hate Tri-X, I've used HP5 decades ago, with my MP I shoot 25ASA Imaglink and TP! And I'm really happy with the M8-results bringing me this clearity in colour! I don't see an issue here, because in combination with the lenses the quality is superior to all 12MP-cameras even in terms of resolution.

 

"If Nikon or Canon had put out a pro-product with such issues they would have been crucified"

 

They do it again and again and again. Various problems especially with early models occured: banding, crashes, electronics. On sunday I've handled a 5000€ 5D+24-70, most things were cheaply made, focus rings were loose... Properly calibrated lenses with constant quality? They simply don't care as long as they sell their products!

But of course I'm with Leica because I wasn't satisfied with Canon or Nikon-quality! I don't want the same problems with a Leica!

 

That's the problem of the internet and all people discussing about those things:

Are there problems? Yes, there are! Do they need to be fixed quickly? Sure. Is this discussion made in an objective way without starting panic and forgetting about all the trouble with other products? No, it's hype, it's panic!!!

 

But anyway, in 99% of the situations I can make technically perfect pictures with my M8 right now and everything else will be handled by Leica - because they do care!

 

 

Newbie-question:

The sensor/electronics knows the wave lenth of the light passing through the optical system. That's why it knows what is red , green or blue ;-) Why can't you just tell the firmware that it should erase every wave length beyond 700nm? Or are there interferences with visible wave lengths?

[jelderfield]

I desperately want a M8 - but think I can wait for the problems to be sorted out. It it takes a year - so be it - I've waited this long. I'm still shooting with the current M7. It works just fine.

 

I am a bit surprised at what I'm starting to see as apologists for Leica. Sure we all want it to succeed - but it doesn't seem to work right, as of now. If it's broken it needs to be fixed.

 

I don't recall my iPods having problems out of the box or my cell phones, over the years.

 

We are paying $5000 for it to do what we want it to do. That means black is black, we can shoot at night, etc.

 

If Leica had said - wait another month or two for final tests then we would have waited and had a camera that works when it got into our hands.

 

I, for one don't have the time or energy to waste on making this camera work - that is Leica's job!

 

Jonathan Elderfield Photography

"Living Under South Street"

Jonathan Elderfield

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[imported_peter_m]

Marc,

 

Dumb question did you by chance try to shoot the same image in JPG and dose it show the same magenta cast?

 

There could be always the chance the raw converters don't interpret the raw file correct.

 

Peter

 

 

The final shot using the M8 ( you can only up-load 5 files at once).

 

My most heart felt hope Leica makes this right quickly ... or those cameras I've pictured here will become collector's items.

 

Keeping the faith ... cautiously.