purple RD1 shot with M8

[sean_reid]

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And Sean what I don't understand is that we were told that C1 was producing great results. Leica apparently knew all the time though that these problems existed. How can we now trust that some future fix will solve this, and not create additional problems as the R9 firmware update has?

 

Hi Again,

 

Well, as you can see from the vegetable pictures and the other pictures, C1 often is producing great color results. I've only had the production camera for a couple weeks or so and I'm still learning about the IR color effects myself. The only place where the C1 color conversions seem to be off is with those subject/lighting conditions that trigger the IR-based variations. So, Leica and C1 will work on this but some of us independents may now also take a crack at color-profiling our way out of the IR-induced casts. I don't think the base C1 profile is off much in general but it clearly isn't accounting for the IR variations yet. This is emprical for me too. I had access to two beta cameras in August and gave appropriate feedback but I wasn't involved in the M8 development process other than giving some general advice to them two years ago.

 

Again, I'll know more when I see what my color wizard friend can whip up.

 

Regarding your firmware question, see my post above.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[NZDavid]

A photographer armed with a Canon EOSD1 tried to take a pic of a purple Alessi product for me. He tried all sorts of things, including manual WB, to no purpose: the thing came out blue. The camera just could not capture the right colour and we gave up. The colour purple is tricky!

[Guest stevenrk]

Hi Peter,

 

I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you but check back in with me after I've gotten some good color profiles to try on these files. Then we'll see how they do. Again, I think some people may be surprised.

 

Look over my posts above. There are two separate issues. The first is getting a proper WB so as to have a baseline. The second is dealing with the IR sensitivity which, again, I suspect can be dealt with through color profiling. I'll know more when my color-management wizard friend can take a crack at some M8 files.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean, we all appreciate all the work you've been doing in trying to help us undersand what is going on here. Of particular concern though is the fact with the RD1 and the M lens, what you see are different parts correctly showing black, others showing up as purple. So even before you start to try and cope with the fabric issue, not clear how you would WB/color profile yourself out of this -- especially if you start finding this with more subtle examples that you'd find in skin color. etc. And agani suggesting that we slap filters on our M lenses should be no more acceptable to us than it would be if Canon/Phase/Leaf tried to make the suggestion -- or released a camera with such a glaring defect.

 

And that we are discussing this, rather than Leica having solved this before release, suggests that the solution may not be a simple or satisfying one.

[rvaubel]

I'm sorry Sean but this makes no sense to me. Over sensitivity to IR is not a WB issue, and Leica wouldn't be considering using a filter (hot mirror I assume) for the problem if it were. Incorrect WB could make it worse if the red channel is too saturated but the inherent problem would be there. This is reminiscent of the problem the D2H had, I certainly wouldn't want to have to use an external filter to deal with it. Your lovely fruit image is not an appropriate comparison for IR sensitivity which renders black fabric, in particular, purple. We wedding shooters had many a correctly white balanced image have purple tuxes when the groom bought black with the D2H. best...Peter

 

Peter

 

Believe me, a custom color profile wlii solve everything. Why Iam I so sure? Well, about a year ago I purchased a special model of the Canon 20D which was optimized by Canon for astrophotography use. essentially, the IR filter was replaced with a much weaker one, thus increasing IR sensitivity by 2 1/2 times! The camera was not intended to be used for conventional use unless a "hot mirror" filter was used on the lens.

 

I purchased the camera, called the 20Da, with the filter and proceeded to use it for regular photography without much hope of getting reasonable color balance. But everything was fine. That's great, but with a need for a halve dozen different filter sizes this can get a little pricey at $200 a pop.

 

So I tried to produce my own color profile for the camera without any filter. It wasn't exactly easy, but with the aid of a GretaMacbeth color chart, certified light, Bruce Fraizer's help, etc, I got a very good match. In fact, I prefer my color profile to any other that I have seen.

 

My solution would work for anyone that is shooting in RAW. And I'm sure within a few weeks, custom profiles will be available from many sources.

 

As for JPEG shooters, I don't know. I do know that AWB has never worked for me under incandescent lighting. Another advantage of shooting RAW is you can forget all about the whole white balance issue.

 

Rex

[sean_reid]

Sean: OT: Did you have all these fruits and vegetables on hands? I'm lucky if I have an apple and a banana around.

 

Hi JR,

 

Well, what with my ten children....

 

Just kidding, those are actually my latest ISO/color test fruit and vegetables. When a new test camera arrives, I go shopping for fruits and vegetables that will give me the colors, textures, shapes, etc. that I want for testing. Then when the test pics are done, my wife and I try to find creative ways to use and prepare our tax-deductible produce. <G> More than once, a grocery clerk has looked up at me during checkout and asked, "What the heck are you cooking?"

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sean, we all appreciate all the work you've been doing in trying to help us undersand what is going on here. Of particular concern though is the fact with the RD1 and the M lens, what you see are different parts correctly showing black, others showing up as purple. So even before you start to try and cope with the fabric issue, not clear how you would WB/color profile yourself out of this -- especially if you start finding this with more subtle examples that you'd find in skin color. etc.

 

Well, this wouldn't be the first time that indies have created better profiles than what comes stock. You are right though, that IR variations pose a challenge for color profiling. That's why I want to send some of these to my color wizard friend and see what he can do.

Overall, I'm just trying to work in a constructive direction to see what can be done without us needing to use IR filters on the lenses.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[innerimager]

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Peter

 

Believe me, a custom color profile wlii solve everything. Why Iam I so sure? Well, about a year ago I purchased a special model of the Canon 20D which was optimized by Canon for astrophotography use. essentially, the IR filter was replaced with a much weaker one, thus increasing IR sensitivity by 2 1/2 times! The camera was not intended to be used for conventional use unless a "hot mirror" filter was used on the lens.

 

I purchased the camera, called the 20Da, with the filter and proceeded to use it for regular photography without much hope of getting reasonable color balance. But everything was fine. That's great, but with a need for a halve dozen different filter sizes this can get a little pricey at $200 a pop.

 

So I tried to produce my own color profile for the camera without any filter. It wasn't exactly easy, but with the aid of a GretaMacbeth color chart, certified light, Bruce Fraizer's help, etc, I got a very good match. In fact, I prefer my color profile to any other that I have seen.

 

My solution would work for anyone that is shooting in RAW. And I'm sure within a few weeks, custom profiles will be available from many sources.

 

As for JPEG shooters, I don't know. I do know that AWB has never worked for me under incandescent lighting. Another advantage of shooting RAW is you can forget all about the whole white balance issue.

 

Rex

Rex- Thanks for the post,. I can understand that a profile can be created that will correct the problem, I was just pointing out that IR sensitivity is not a WB issue, it's made worse by incorrect WB. Any color distortion can theoretically be corrected by a well made color profile, there is a symptomatic cure, but the disease remains! In 2006, after these problems have already surfaced in other DSLR's for years, one would have preferred that the this would have been handled without need for correction, for reasons including the fact that reasonably accurate JPGs should be available from any top camera, even if they are not as wonderful as a perfectly processed Raw image.....Peter

[reddawn]

Steven & Simon--Grungewumpus!

 

Have you read Leica's own announcement on the issue? If not, don't jump in with opinions of what they should and shouldn't do.

 

How do other companies handle the issue? Well, have you noticed that although you can manually set white balance to common home tungsten color temperature on the D200, Nikon's auto white balance specifically doesn't go that low. It can't disappoint because it just doesn't work.

 

Leica is aware of and working on the problem and has posted that fact on their web site.

--HC

 

which part of Leica's own website did they put up this notice or announcement?

[innerimager]

PS - Looking for lemonade amongst the lemons, I guess the M8 will be terrific for IR shooting! I'm new to range finders, but I assume that since you aren't viewing through the lens, using a IR pass filter still allows you to see the image which you can't do with a DSLR....true?

[sean_reid]

Rex- Thanks for the post,. I can understand that a profile can be created that will correct the problem, I was just pointing out that IR sensitivity is not a WB issue, it's made worse by incorrect WB.

 

Hi Again Peter,

 

I don't think anyone on the thread (yet?) is conflating IR response and WB. But one must start with a file that has correct WB in order to have a baseline to judge the IR affects. Hence the importance of using a WhiBal or the like.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

PS - Looking for lemonade amongst the lemons, I guess the M8 will be terrific for IR shooting! I'm new to range finders, but I assume that since you aren't viewing through the lens, using a IR pass filter still allows you to see the image which you can't do with a DSLR....true?

 

Leica made the same point in the statement I quoted in the review. The M8 should be a great camera for IR work. And, yes, the IR filter will have no effect on the finder itself.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[ho_co]

HC, with all due respect, I appreciate WB. I nearly always use selective manual WB (including the use of color WB meter in critical applications). But that's not the point here.

 

I would not dream of comparing the M8 to a prosumer cam like a D200. Don't mean to insult Nikon users, but I would compare it to the R9, or the 1Ds (I and II) and Phase One and Leaf. (Unless the M8 is breaking the M tradition, which it clearly is not.) And compared to these, what we are seeing here is not acceptable. Certainly many of us can work aroung this. Sean's shots (including the lovely daylight shots) and others posted on the forum speak to this. But a professional level camera in late 2006 that can't produce even a simple black is not ready for release. period.

 

And at the same time, I wish Leica all good fortune in pulling this off. What they are trying to do -- bring us a professional level digital RF with Leica quality and Leica lenses -- is admirable and important. But that simply does not explain why they didn't wait until they had this sorted out before releasing the camera. Better -- and more professional -- to have delayed the introduction.

Steven--

I respect your opinion highly. And I don't think anyone with any level of Nikon would be offended if you said neither the camera nor the lenses are up to Leica's standards. Even the M8 is only up to Leica's standards 99% of the time, from what we're hearing on this forum.

 

But you and I start off from different perspectives.

 

"...can't produce a simple black...."? I think we've seen a lot of simple blacks in Sean's and others' images. Sean has said this problem can likely be handled with a better profile.

 

"Leica apparently knew ... that these problems existed."? I doubt that. I haven't seen any indication that that would be the case. Photographers worked with the cameras for a year trying to solve problems. Neither M Reichmann nor E Puts nor S Reid found any problems with reproducing 'simple' blacks, two with the current firmware and one possibly with an earlier version.

 

You have every right to complain that the camera isn't up to your needs. Some on the forum feel that 'early adopters' of new electronic products are simply beta testers. That may be so.

 

My feeling is that Leica felt the camera was ready to go and was unaware of any major issues that still needed addressing.

 

The M8 isn't ready for you, that's clear. But to say Leica "apparently knew" it wasn't ready for you is a long jump in my opinion.

 

Respectfully,

 

--HC

[innerimager]

Hi Again Peter,

 

I don't think anyone on the thread (yet?) is conflating IR response and WB. But one must start with a file that has correct WB in order to have a baseline to judge the IR affects. Hence the importance of using a WhiBal or the like.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Agree totally Sean!

[Guest stevenrk]

Hi Steven,

 

Before you draw too many conclusions, shoot another picture with a WhiBal or other known color-neutral card and then set your WB with the eyedropper in C1. Auto WB and presets are usually not accurate for most cameras in incandescent light, especially the R-D1 itself. More specifically, Auto-WB in household lighting is a disaster for most cameras and auto WB has never been a good method for critical color work in any lighting condition.

 

Without setting WB from a known color-neutral card, one can't draw accurate conclusions about the M8's color rendering. It would be worth doing this for you to get a better reference point as to what the camera delivers. I stress, however, that the reference card must be absolutely color-neutral. One doesn't need to do post-processing color correction if the WB setting process for C1 is accurate.

 

I made my test pictures for the review using WhiBal sampling in various kinds of light and the color rendition is quite good. That's the same method I currently use when testing all cameras. It certainly is not true that the M8 is a camera that can only render color well in daylight. Example to follow.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean, here are three shots. The first with a 1Ds mkII set to the kelvin temp, no corrections in C1. The second, M8 set to the kelvin temp, no corrections in C1. The third with the M8 set to kelvin temp and worked C1 to adjust the WB without pushing too far to make the camera and board go yellow on us -- ie., about as far as I could compensate with temp and tint without making things worse. Let the results speak for themsleves.

 

First shot: 1Ds MKII:

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[Guest stevenrk]

2nd with the M8 set to the correct Kelvin but no adjustment in C1:

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[innerimager]

Leica made the same point in the statement I quoted in the review. The M8 should be a great camera for IR work. And, yes, the IR filter will have no effect on the finder itself.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

This could be a great aspect to RF shooting and the M8 in particular I hadn't been considering when I bought in. (M8 and RD-1 will both arrive tomorrow). I think I'll be getting a IR pass filter before I get a IR blocker! ....Peter

[Guest stevenrk]

third, with the M8 set to kelvin and adjustments to WB and tint made in C1:

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[sean_reid]

.

"...can't produce a simple black...."? I think we've seen a lot of simple blacks in Sean's and others' images. Sean has said this problem can likely be handled with a better profile.

 

Hi Howard,

 

Rex is pretty certain that it can be profiled out. I'm optimistic that its possible and will go at this empirically.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Hallo,

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[ho_co]

which part of Leica's own website did they put up this notice or announcement?

David--

My apologies. I thought the link I referenced above at http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8881-purple-rd1-shot-m8.html#post87121 was the direct link to the Leica site. That post is in error.

 

I'm checking to find the reference again. I find it extremely hard to get around the redesigned Leica web sites.

 

I do remember that the mention of the AWB was under the title "The M8 Experience" or something like that. It was a page on an English-language site, not a downloadable PDF. I linked directly to it from an item on this forum, so it may be either US or UK. And now the only item I can find with that title is on The Digital Outback, but I'm sure what I remember was the much neater and more legible Leica site.

 

Sorry for the confusion. Not right of me to blame others for not reading Leica's word on the topic when I can't find the entry again myself.

 

And after half an hour, I still can't find it. If I find it, I'll post it here. If someone else finds it, please post it.

 

My sincere apologies. My fault.

 

--HC

[sean_reid]

third, with the M8 set to kelvin and adjustments to WB and tint made in C1:

 

Hi Steven,

 

Headed to bed but will look at these and discuss more tomorrow.

 

G'night

 

Sean