bill Posted November 7, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) In the midst of all the fever surrounding the M8 I would like to offer an alternative view. I work in the "Enterprise Software" market. Companies make a significant investment in software solutions to support their business. They choose (very) carefully, based on a range of factors; price, service, track-record, stability, performance ("feature-function") and so on. They look at what others in the same market as them are using. They consult peers and independent experts and, when they are satisfied, they purchase and implement. They spend time over the implementation, and on user adoption, giving their people all the training they need to operate the new and unfamiliar system. Above all, companies do not make their decisions capriciously; just because they have the money to afford to purchase a new piece of software does not mean they do so. They will conduct painstaking cost-benefit analyses and look at the payback period. If the investment does not "wash it's face" they will not commit. The M8 "feeding frenzy" at the moment flies in the face of all that I have written above. The bit that really bothers me is that people appear to be queuing up to beta-test. This is NOT an attack on any individuals, btw - to each their own - but if you are an "early adopter" you must expect some bumps along the way. No sensible supplier will ever set out to release a product that it knows is flawed; the collateral damage to it's reputation is not repaired overnight. I am certain that Leica are as bothered by the "banding issue" as are those unfortunates that are experiencing it. One final thought; new releases of enterprise software come out on a regular basis. It is common for a customer to skip a release if it does not deliver significant benefits over and above the stable and reliable version they are already using. The M8 does offer those significant benefits over its' predecessors - to some. Others will wait, for the bugs to be ironed out, for the M8.2, M8-P or M9. I wish those who have "implemented" an M8 in their photographic lives well. But as things stand, I shall be in the second wave. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Hi bill, Take a look here Early Adopters start here. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rvaubel Posted November 7, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 7, 2006 In the midst of all the fever surrounding the M8 I would like to offer an alternative view. I work in the "Enterprise Software" market. Companies make a significant investment in software solutions to support their business. They choose (very) carefully, based on a range of factors; price, service, track-record, stability, performance ("feature-function") and so on. They look at what others in the same market as them are using. They consult peers and independent experts and, when they are satisfied, they purchase and implement. They spend time over the implementation, and on user adoption, giving their people all the training they need to operate the new and unfamiliar system. Above all, companies do not make their decisions capriciously; just because they have the money to afford to purchase a new piece of software does not mean they do so. They will conduct painstaking cost-benefit analyses and look at the payback period. If the investment does not "wash it's face" they will not commit. The M8 "feeding frenzy" at the moment flies in the face of all that I have written above. The bit that really bothers me is that people appear to be queuing up to beta-test. This is NOT an attack on any individuals, btw - to each their own - but if you are an "early adopter" you must expect some bumps along the way. No sensible supplier will ever set out to release a product that it knows is flawed; the collateral damage to it's reputation is not repaired overnight. I am certain that Leica are as bothered by the "banding issue" as are those unfortunates that are experiencing it. One final thought; new releases of enterprise software come out on a regular basis. It is common for a customer to skip a release if it does not deliver significant benefits over and above the stable and reliable version they are already using. The M8 does offer those significant benefits over its' predecessors - to some. Others will wait, for the bugs to be ironed out, for the M8.2, M8-P or M9. I wish those who have "implemented" an M8 in their photographic lives well. But as things stand, I shall be in the second wave. Regards, Bill Bill I know it doesn't make any rational sense, but there is a certain "thrill" to being and early adopter. For those of us who are hobbyist part of the pleasure of being the first one on the block, is the thrill of the unknown i.e. the gambling element. Also sorting out the beta problems is fun in itself. With a community like this forum, one can spend countless hours trying to figure out what is "wrong" with the hardware. I had a similar experience with the RD1 and I'm ready for more. That being said, I wouldn't want to be a early adopter if I didn't think the camera didn't have the potential to be the best. Please note that "best" is fully and unilaterally defined by me. This type of crusade is not for everyone. Those that get on this horse without fully realizing the risk are soon to be thrown. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_r_smith Posted November 7, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 7, 2006 Well it's all very well enjoying the "thrill" of being an unpaid beta tester, but you blokes have paid the best part of three thousand quid for this. To me, that is huge money. I don't think that I would be finding the experience terribly interesting if I had had just bought an M8. And where is the official response from Leica AG? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 7, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 7, 2006 HI Bill I could question your description of the way in which corporates buy software - but that's a different issue! Still, if you're company's 'product' happened to be phototographs taken with a rangefinder camera, I think the scenario is slightly different, and that Leica has brought out a machine tool which produces 'product' in a way not previously possible, and to a quality not previously available at a much smaller cost. Given this criteria, most companies would be jumping on the bandwagon like billyo - if there are problems, well, you only need to know how to identify them and do it 'the old way' in those rare circumstances. kind regards jono slack jonathan slack - photographs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 7, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 7, 2006 I am more than happy to be an early adopter and I do not question Leica's willingness to address the issues at all. I was pleased to meet several people at Photokina who had been involved in the development of the camera and their sense of pride in their achievement was palpable. I have huge respect for their abilities and integrity and will cut them a lot of slack while they work through the issues. I actually find it quite interesting to look at the issues myself and, with an electronics/softwasre background, think about what might be causing them. Doesn't mean I reach the right conclusions but I have posted my thoughts here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayh Posted November 7, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 7, 2006 I am a gnat's ass away from returning the camera. I have been trying to reach Leica USA via phone for two days, and the line is always busy. I have been trying like once every 30 minutes. If this is an indication of their responsiveness, I am somewhat underwhelmed. The sensor streaking issue is a serious problem and I cannot believe that they let this out the door in its current state. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSee Posted November 7, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) In the midst of all the fever surrounding the M8 I would like to offer an alternative view. I work in the "Enterprise Software" market. Companies make a significant investment in software solutions to support their business. They choose (very) carefully, based on a range of factors; price, service, track-record, stability, performance ("feature-function") and so on. They look at what others in the same market as them are using. They consult peers and independent experts and, when they are satisfied, they purchase and implement. They spend time over the implementation, and on user adoption, giving their people all the training they need to operate the new and unfamiliar system. Above all, companies do not make their decisions capriciously; just because they have the money to afford to purchase a new piece of software does not mean they do so. They will conduct painstaking cost-benefit analyses and look at the payback period. If the investment does not "wash it's face" they will not commit. The M8 "feeding frenzy" at the moment flies in the face of all that I have written above. The bit that really bothers me is that people appear to be queuing up to beta-test. This is NOT an attack on any individuals, btw - to each their own - but if you are an "early adopter" you must expect some bumps along the way. No sensible supplier will ever set out to release a product that it knows is flawed; the collateral damage to it's reputation is not repaired overnight. I am certain that Leica are as bothered by the "banding issue" as are those unfortunates that are experiencing it. One final thought; new releases of enterprise software come out on a regular basis. It is common for a customer to skip a release if it does not deliver significant benefits over and above the stable and reliable version they are already using. The M8 does offer those significant benefits over its' predecessors - to some. Others will wait, for the bugs to be ironed out, for the M8.2, M8-P or M9. I wish those who have "implemented" an M8 in their photographic lives well. But as things stand, I shall be in the second wave. Regards, Bill Your assertions are based on available--and reliable--alternatives to the digital RF M-mount system. While the Epson R-D1 is the only other system of this type, and a good system at that, all you have truely offered here is "I will wait". From your comments, you must be using "the stable and reliable version" of the R-D1s... true? There are no "bugs" with the current R-D1? Is it your opinion that Leica will abandon the M8 and its "early adopters" with a problematic system, and proceed with an M9? I should hope you "wish those who have /implemented/ an M8 in their photographic lives well": the camera system you await depends on it rgds, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Maio Posted November 7, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 7, 2006 I too would question how well the enterprise software paradigm works for your example. I can't tell you how many times in my corporate career we were told just how wonderful the new stuff would be and even after lengthly beta testing, pilot teams, parallel implementation, end user traing, and on and on, the bugs (or worse) are still there and take time to work out. If you are in the USA, I promise that you'll hear the phrase "computer glitch" many times to explain vote counts (or lack of them) many times through the evening as the voting process churns its way through to a conclusion. That Leica/Kodak have some end-user discovered glitches is not news. What *would* be news is that fixes are found and efficiently deployed with out having to hire armies of lawyers which, in my experience, happened more than once when enterprise software systems didn't work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share #9 Posted November 7, 2006 Your assertions are based on available--and reliable--alternatives to the digital RF M-mount system. While the Epson R-D1 is the only other system of this type, and a good system at that, all you have truely offered here is "I will wait". From your comments, you must be using "the stable and reliable version" of the R-D1s... true? Dave, There are many available and reliable alternatives to the digital RF M-Mount system, and indeed, I use one; an M7. The fact that it feeds on "film" not SD cards does not rule it out as an alternative. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJames Posted November 7, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 7, 2006 I am a gnat's ass away from returning the camera. I have been trying to reach Leica USA via phone for two days, and the line is always busy. I have been trying like once every 30 minutes. If this is an indication of their responsiveness, I am somewhat underwhelmed. The sensor streaking issue is a serious problem and I cannot believe that they let this out the door in its current state. Leica's phone system is down... Not sure how long... ask Ma Bell... Thanks Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayh Posted November 7, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 7, 2006 Well, I guess I am relieved that they are not dodging irate M8 buyers... Leica's phone system is down... Not sure how long... ask Ma Bell...Thanks Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdewitt Posted November 7, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 7, 2006 I am a software architect. The systems I design are used in government, particularly by public safety agencies. I make it a point to be an early adopter. I typically have teams doing full-on development using late betas of development environments. There is a risk associated with doing so. But I make the decision knowing full well that our development timeline will continue well beyond the beta/buggy period. The payoff comes in being first to market using new and exciting technologies. It has paid off very handsomely. There's a risk associated with being an early adopter of the Leica M8, too. So far none of the issue will affect me, but more may crop up. The risk to me is that I may have to send my camera back for repair. If it takes too long then I'll just buy a replacement when I send it in and either own two cameras or sell one when the first is fixed. No big deal. I realize not everyone is able to be so nonchalant about the expense, but all early adopters have to weigh the risks. Some people are risk takers and some aren't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJames Posted November 7, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 7, 2006 Well, I guess I am relieved that they are not dodging irate M8 buyers... Phones are back up at Leica... JIm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkusner Posted November 7, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 7, 2006 The M8 "feeding frenzy" at the moment flies in the face of all that I have written above. The bit that really bothers me is that people appear to be queuing up to beta-test. This is NOT an attack on any individuals, btw - to each their own - but if you are an "early adopter" you must expect some bumps along the way. Agreed. It's been somewhat humorous to me to see the same progression of ecstasy->impatience->disappointment/outrage that has accompanied pretty much every cutting edge digital camera I can remember since the Sony F828. It goes something like this: 1) Best camera ever just announced! My dreams have come true! 2) Is anyone accepting pre-orders yet?!? 3) Pre-ordered mine! 4) Weeks of 'Is it shipping yet?' 5) Beta reviews are up! OMG it looks amazing! 6) Mine shippped! Arrives tomorrow! 7) Mine arrived! Here are pictures of the box! 8) First pictures of my cat! 9) First reports of banding/noise/moire/artifacts/CA/blooming/etc/etc/etc 10) Cancelled my order/sending mine back/this is unacceptable/how can they possibly let a camera with flaws like this go out?!?!? To those who want to be early adopters and understand and accept what that means, thank you. You give me the first stage of information I need to make an informed purchase decision. To those want breathless 'I got mine first' bragging rights with an expectation of perfection, cut up your credit cards now and save yourself and everyone else the outrage. You're a beta tester if you get one now. I'd like to get an M8, but wouldn't dream of it before I had seen multiple reviews and lots of production images and had a good expectation of issues I might encounter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmsr Posted November 7, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 7, 2006 I had sent an email about the banding/streaking, magenta cast, and auto WB issues which my camera also exhibited to my local Leica rep. on Sunday (RJames - say hello to her). She responded on Sunday and forwarded this to Leica USA. I just got off the phone with David at Leica USA, and he had received the email. He does not have any news yet, but assured me that Leica Germany is working urgently towards a solution for all of us. We discussed the magenta cast and auto WB issues as most likely the IR filter, C1 profile, and firmware. Relative to the banding/streaking issue, I expressed concern on keeping the camera as I take many low light shots that do often have bright lights in the frame. He does not know what they are going to change or the timing, but did state Leica would resolve the issue with software or hardware as needed and as quickly as possilble. Best, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfogle Posted November 7, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 7, 2006 Who's the bigger fool - the fool or the fool who follows him? - Obi-wan Kenobi, Star Wars 1977 - sorry, I couldn't resist that one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsolomon Posted November 8, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 8, 2006 Bill, i also work for an enterprise software maker. you present a standard case in sales. My guess is that you are on the "production" side verse the "sales" (quota carrying) side. On the sales side, we use emotion, relationship, exicitment, perceived value, expected value, commitiment, and the promise that the user will be sucessfull with the solution. What some don't understand is that with all the analysis done by the procurment team (or the new camera purchaser) the actual value can not be determined until after the solution (camera) is purchased, deployed, and inuse (maybe a few hundred frames). In sales we tend to leverage the emotion and excitiment, this often leads to a "trought of disapointment" basically a state where the customer beleives he has purchased the cure all (the camera that is 100 %perfect and there needs are solved). Ofcourse this is not true and the product settles in somwhere in the curve. My guess is that the M8 will settle in high on the curve (where most leica products do) , but not at 100% (nothing REALLY does) excitment is fun, and folks are excited about the M8 and thats why the M8 sells..... leica did a good job of generating the excitment, my guess is dealers have not sold any M8's they just closed the deal on ecitment that leica generated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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