Peter41951 Posted November 7, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I guess Sean and Michael both had different samples ... ...and with different firmware........ If we're talking scientific approach we need a look at their cameras before criticising review techniques. I'm very glad to have both reviewers' opinions of the M8 et al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Samir Jahjah Posted November 7, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 7, 2006 I think it is a serious problem and I am surprised by the complacency of customers or would-be owner of the Leica M8: for a pro, even if it only affects 1 out of 100 pictures, it is not something that can accept... Bright light sources are not always easy to spot while framing and composing, in some pictures light reflecting on a glass or metal item did create this banding... Imagine a wedding dinner, a concert performance, or even street photography at night... I am eager to get mine, but not at all costs, and not with these kind of flaws. Are there many pro-photographers here that will take the risks of loosing 1 percent of their wedding shots? Regarding the reviewers, I guess they spotted the issue, and most likely contacted their contacts at Leica to see what Leica had to say about it...and this is quite professional. Their reviews are excellent and we can t expect a couple of reviewers using a couple of M8 to spot all possible flaws, there is nothing better than hundreds of photographers reporting their experience on the Web. As for Leica, I guess they have no choice but to react swiftly, replace M8 from unhappy customers and get a second batch out with all these problem fixed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 7, 2006 Peter, What you are saying, essentially, is that my reviews of the M8 are not accurate because I only picked up on there being "slight banding" at ISO 2500. The fact is simply that the pictures I made with the camera, which is to say my normal work, did not show this phenomenon beyond the degree that I mentioned it in the Part Two review. I regret that I missed the extent of the light streaking problem but it just didn't show itself to any notable extent in the pictures I made (and still doesn't except in tests I do that deliberately try to invoke the behavior). No one reviewer is going to be able to use every camera under every possible condition with every subject. There are thousands of us, however, on this list and so that gives us a wide range of experience to draw upon, different subjects, different lighting, etc. Collectively, we will be able to discover more than any one person could. When Pascal accidentally discovered the light streaking problem, I tested to see if I could replicate it, contacted Leica to make them aware of the problem and to get their comments and then added a section on the topic to my review. That's really the best I can do. I presented pictures made under both daylight and incandescent light and neither show a magenta cast. I can't report on something I don't see. When the concern was raised here I again raised it with Leica, got their comments and added a section to the review. I still have yet to see a magenta cast in my pictures with the M8. To the extent that it does exist, I think it's just a matter of tweaking RAW color profiles. That's been the case for a lot of digital cameras. In addition to listing the camera's strengths, I've also described each of it's weaknesses, as I've experienced them. I've been the only reviewer to take issue with the lack of weather sealing (which cannot be fixed with firmware), with the digital controls design, etc. I've done more complete noise comparison testing of the camera than any reviewer I'm aware of. I've been the only one yet to test the effectiveness of the digital vignetting correction, the only one to compare the camera to both the R-D1 and the 5D, etc. Overall, if you read the three reviews together, they provide a more complete assessment of the camera than any other coverage I've seen and that assessment includes pros and cons. All of it is honest and is based on my direct experience with the camera as a working professional photographer. I try to be very thorough but it's always possible for any one reviewer to miss something. Being one of the first to publish on a camera, especially before it's been released to the public, always carries some risks because there's always a chance one could miss something. Later reviews will be written after the camera is already in widespread use and those reviewers will benefit from the public discussions of concerns that arise in Internet discussion forums, etc. In short, it's safer to not publish at all until one knows what the public reaction has been to the camera, what issues have arisen from that, etc. Otherwise, one is what is called a "sitting duck". People clamor to get information about the camera ASAP and then some are very quick to attack if that information misses any aspect - human nature I guess. It's a lot easier to be a "Monday morning quarterback" than it is to be one of the first to put information out. Let's say that I had asked my subscribers if they'd prefer that I hold off on publishing about the M8 until it was in the hands of many photographers, just in case I had missed some aspect that might make me look less credible. Would they have said, "Yes, by all means. Don't take the risk of publishing the first full review of the camera. We don't need this information very much, please play it safe and wait."? I think not. I published everything I knew about the production camera when I knew it. As new concerns have arisen, I've addressed them in the reviews. I would argue that there's a bit of hysteria developing here, as is common on the Internet. Many people do not actually have the M8 in their hands yet seem to be worried that the camera is hopelessly flawed. I would suggest that people pay particular attention to the posts from people who actually have the camera and are making pictures with it. Not just tests of bright lights, mind you, but a wide range of pictures of various subjects under various kinds of lighting. What I'm reading from them is that, while some may be concerned about the light streaking, they are very happy with the camera in many respects. If that is the case, speak up M8 owners. I have not yet read about a stampede of people returning M8 cameras they've received. Some are cancelling orders because they're anxious but I haven't heard much about returns from people who actually have the camera. I stand by my assessment of the M8 as an excellent camera. I think the light streaking problem needs to be addressed with a firmware change and that the color profiles will need to be tweaked for various lighting conditions and to better account for the camera's IR sensitivity. That said, of course, I'm still quite pleased with the color rendition I'm seeing from the camera in my work and I'm still very impressed with the camera overall. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samir Jahjah Posted November 7, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 7, 2006 Sean, Your reviews are top notch and the way you interact with the community, and with Leica is really appreciated. I am confident the M8 is potentially a great camera. However I disagree with you that there is hysteria : imagine a luxury car maker sells the best car in the world, but you know that the anti-skid in that car, while still the best, may under some circumstances, fail and send you off the road: are you going to buy it? Imagine Intel issues the best computer chip ever, but under some circumstances, once upon 1000 times, the chip will generate random light bands on your screen, in your files... More seriously, we are entering Christmas, with Chirstmas trees, Mass at churche, candles, and dinners: who would now rely on a M8 to capture these moments? No one! Samir Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #25 Posted November 7, 2006 Sean, Your reviews are top notch and the way you interact with the community, and with Leica is really appreciated. I am confident the M8 is potentially a great camera. However I disagree with you that there is hysteria : imagine a luxury car maker sells the best car in the world, but you know that the anti-skid in that car, while still the best, may under some circumstances, fail and send you off the road: are you going to buy it? Imagine Intel issues the best computer chip ever, but under some circumstances, once upon 1000 times, the chip will generate random light bands on your screen, in your files... More seriously, we are entering Christmas, with Chirstmas trees, Mass at churche, candles, and dinners: who would now rely on a M8 to capture these moments? No one! Samir Hi Samir, Perhaps hysteria is too strong a word. People who have not used the camera seem to be deeply concerned with its perceived weaknesses whereas people who actually have the camera in hand are well aware of its strengths. People are also suggesting conspiracies of various kinds that have nothing to do with reality. I'm also reading a lot of over-generalizations about the camera. The concerns about the streaking are valid and that's why I've pursued them with Leica and now written about them. A little patience and perspective with respect makes sense here. We all wish they'd caught that sooner but they didn't and so let's see if they can get it in firmware now. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 7, 2006 Share #26 Posted November 7, 2006 Once again, I cannot empathize enough that I found some issues because I had no time to do some real shooting. So I shot my son at home under an old halogen light just to play with the camera but not expecting the images to be good anyway. And I went out by night for another shooting session because I was stucked at work during the day. Should I had more time, I would have gone for some street pictures in Paris, my favorite subject. And guess what ? Once I did, the M8 gave me nothing but excellent results. Even the shots in the Underground (Subway/Tube/Metro, add your own flavor here) were totally banding free. So finally, if I had spent a lot of time shooting real pictures like Sean Reid did, I'm quite sure I would have reach the same conclusions he did. Except I'm too lazy and too bad a writer to write a review like his. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted November 7, 2006 Share #27 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I agree on all the aforementioned, and a little patience is in order here. These problems are not infrequent occurrences in the digital world that we live in however I still cannot get it over my head that they would release a product that seems to have basic flaws in it. As I have been following the threads here from day 1 all I have to say - it was expected! In my line of work (software development) it would be unthinkable to release a new version of firmware so close to the final unveiling! Testing of the final product is a long and hard process. Any additional refinements to the final product are left aside at this point for future releases and not introduced at such a late point be it ISO sensitivity, or any other improvements the development team came up with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 7, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 7, 2006 I may be one of the people taking picture of bright lights that Sean refers to but I hope my reaction to the issues has been more one of curiosity over what the causes can be. I'm happy to wait for a fix, am enjoying the camera in the meantime and my order for a second one stands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 7, 2006 I may be one of the people taking picture of bright lights that Sean refers to but I hope my reaction to the issues has been more one of curiosity over what the causes can be. I've been doing the same since this issue arose, just to see if I could replicate, etc. I could and so I contacted Leica, added to the review, etc. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted November 7, 2006 Share #30 Posted November 7, 2006 My M8 has has locked up on me and gone dead several times today. It displays banding in some conditions. The color rendition is strange. Let's face it, pre-release testing was botched. A reputation for excellence is the central asset of the Leica brand. A reputation now getting damaged by this early release. Edit ABr - and Leica Quality assurance- have not done Leica any favors by letting these bugs slip through the net and letting the camera be released in this state. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted November 7, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 7, 2006 Oy vey!! (sp) So don't buy the camera already! Or return it! (Which nobody seems to be doing, but may prove to be a reasonable course for some kind of shooters.) But, don't accuse Leica or Sean of venality. You haven't been wronged by anyone. You've been disappointed by your expectations and feeling you are entitled to perfection. This is easily more painful for the people at Leica than anyone else. And, they are doing their best to solve it. Give me your place in line. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted November 7, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 7, 2006 Edmund, I was not referring to you. I wrote before I saw your post. Yes this doesn't help Leica. I haven't heard of the lockup before. What exactly did it do, and how did you solve it. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 7, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 7, 2006 If your camera locks and goes dead, then your are unlucky and should send it back for maintenance. Because you are the only one with this problem. The colors are ok if you know how to do a WB. If you have a problem at 2400K, I gave some solutions and they are easy to implement. But blaming the reviewers and beta-testers won't solve your problems and is clearly unfair. How could they predict that your camera would lock if it is the only to exhibit such a flaw ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted November 7, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 7, 2006 Then maybe Leica should have used Canon's 1DsII sensor instead of Kodak's in the M8! [warning: bad puns follow...] Oh well, not to worry. After all, we're just a band of merry photographers, enjoying our toys. Let's not cast doubt on the ability of the camera until it has been in use for a while. Perhaps if we make enough noise, Leica will address the issues promptly. But until then, just have fun and enjoy the camera. There is no doubt in my mind that Leica is working really hard to get these problems resolved. Remember that every day that goes by more M8s are sold and more are then subject to whatever fixes leica finds. If this involves a complete sensor changeout for example Leica's liabilitites and costs to fix become extremely high. So net net, they have no reasons to wait and every reason to hurry. Woody Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted November 7, 2006 Share #35 Posted November 7, 2006 I don't think anyone was expecting perfection since we all new that the processor was not full frame- as such I think any logical person would have had an expectation that was high but not higher than that offered by the full frame sensors-as such a lot of people were happy with the camera even though at ISO 2500 it is no the best out there . But please spending $5,000 on a camera is no small sum so that Leica can get away with this lightly. If it lacked the knowledge to do this inhouse maybe it should have thought of other ways to complete the product. I don't wish to be their guinne pig. I realise that I may be a bit trigger happy here but I am waiting to see the solutions Leica will be offering because I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but not for too long.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frc Posted November 7, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 7, 2006 An overreaction is taking place, I on this agree with Sean. Just look at all the threads about banding green things and more coming from mars. The chances of anything bad coming from Leica are a milion to one, they say. ( War of the Worlds, but a bit different ) The best reviewer, and I think Sean will agree with me, is a whole bunch of people actualy using a device in real life. No way one person can cover everything. Wasn't everyone demanding a fast release of the camera, and wasn't everyone raving for reviews. "What's the camera like?" Like me many of us will want to wait a bit longer before purchase because of the bugs reveiled. This however does not justify any Leica bashing, nor Sean bashing either. If it would turn out Leica would eventualy not fix the problems on the items sold so far, it would be a completely different situation. To me this seems unimaginable. For the time being, speculating on the isue or cursing reviewers is not approbatory from my point of view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 7, 2006 My M8 has has locked up on me and gone dead several times today. It displays banding in some conditions. The color rendition is strange. Let's face it, pre-release testing was botched. A reputation for excellence is the central asset of the Leica brand. A reputation now getting damaged by this early release. Edit ABr- and Leica Quality assurance- have not done Leica any favors by letting these bugs slip through the net and letting the camera be released in this state. Edmund The pre-release reviewers!? Reviewers have no control over what a manufacturer releases. Those of us who worked with pre-production cameras (myself, Phil Askey, Tom Abrahamson, Ed Schwartzreich, etc., etc.) gave our feedback on whatever problems we found with the camera to Leica. But reviewers don't control what's done with cameras or lenses. We just provided feedback, as this forum is doing. If you are upset with Leica, don't blame reviewers. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #38 Posted November 7, 2006 If your camera locks and goes dead, then your are unlucky and should send it back for maintenance. Because you are the only one with this problem. The colors are ok if you know how to do a WB. If you have a problem at 2400K, I gave some solutions and they are easy to implement. But blaming the reviewers and beta-testers won't solve your problems and is clearly unfair. How could they predict that your camera would lock if it is the only to exhibit such a flaw ? Moreover, reviewers and others such as myself who had access to prototypes in August did give our feedback on any concerns we had. But some are confusing us with the manufacturer itself. Some of you are getting mixed up with this, I suspect you may feel the need to vent your frustrations in some direction but get your compass oriented first. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frc Posted November 7, 2006 Share #39 Posted November 7, 2006 Calm down Sean, don't let people ruin your day. Go out and do some shots. ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted November 7, 2006 Share #40 Posted November 7, 2006 Like everyone else, I'm not happy about the problems that have occurred, but I seriously doubt that there was any conspiracy or intentional oversight on the part of Leica or the reviewers. Although frustration is understandable, finger-pointing isn't going to solve the problem. There's no question in my mind that Leica can and will find a solution. It would be nice if everyone could remember that we're talking about a camera, not a life-and-death issue. Please try to chill. Thanks, Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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