M8 Auto WB issues?

[andrewrossphotographs]

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I have had a chance to test the M8 camera again, looking primarily at the Auto WB consistency.

 

I shot the same scene with different exposures under continuous light conditions and this has led to some pictures being notably warmer, others being much cooler with varied white balance in between when shooting a sequence of shots.

 

I was testing a camera with firmware 1.06.

 

I don't seem to experience this problem on any other digital camera using Auto WB mode (Nikon) now, so I'm a bit perplexed to see this on a M8 in 2006!

 

Does anyone know how the M8 balances/achieves its WB and whether if this issue is apparent to all M8's and do you think it is fixable via a firmware upgrade?

 

This "problem" has also be noted in this test: Leica M8 Experience

 

q.v.: I remember Nikon in the early days of the D1 didn't include an external WB sensor on their D1 models which would sometimes provide inconsistent WB, on the D2's they introduced the little dome on the pentaprism to improve accuracy, this has worked well, perhaps the Leica M8 needs one too?

 

 

Andrew

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[jflachmann]

To me it looks more and more like a general problem with the firmware. Banding, WB ... It seems to me, that it is not really final.

[mwilliamsphotography]

No banding or WB issues with mine as of yet.

 

Auto WB looked off when I used Adobe Camera RAW, and looked close enough when I used Capture One that came with the kit. It also looked fine using Aperture and crappy in Adobe Lightroom. So the 2 Adobe processing engines are the problem for me.

 

That's because I have my RAW defaults in Adobe Camera RAW set for my Canons, so it's clear that I'll have to make a sub-set of calibrated defaults for this camera in ACR just like I did with the DMR. I had already processed M8 images in ACR when I tried Lightroom ... so I'm sure Lightroom read the side-car attached files and produced the same effects as I was seeing in ARC.

 

Note that even my 1DsMKII and 5D will band and produce horribly red Auto White Balance under certain conditions ... like under exposing and Kelvin temps that drop below the minimum the camera can be internally adjusted for. Under those conditions Auto WB sucks on every digital camera I've shot with ... including Nikon, Contax ND, Canon and my DMR.

 

If you're going to shoot in super low tungsten ambient light, set tungsten not Auto WB. and, if you can, shoot the first frame of a grey card so you can WB the whole set at once later.

 

We need to be sure we learn the idiosyncratic aspects of this camera before blaming the camera. Not that there won't be issues, (and these vey well may be issues), but let's get our processing defaults set up for it. No two cameras are the same.

[andrewrossphotographs]

No banding or WB issues with mine as of yet.

 

Auto WB looked off when I used Adobe Camera RAW, and looked close enough when I used Capture One that came with the kit. It also looked fine using Aperture and crappy in Adobe Lightroom. So the 2 Adobe processing engines are the problem for me.

 

That's because I have my RAW defaults in Adobe Camera RAW set for my Canons, so it's clear that I'll have to make a sub-set of calibrated defaults for this camera in ACR just like I did with the DMR. I had already processed M8 images in ACR when I tried Lightroom ... so I'm sure Lightroom read the side-car attached files and produced the same effects as I was seeing in ARC.

 

Note that even my 1DsMKII and 5D will band and produce horribly red Auto White Balance under certain conditions ... like under exposing and Kelvin temps that drop below the minimum the camera can be internally adjusted for. Under those conditions Auto WB sucks on every digital camera I've shot with ... including Nikon, Contax ND, Canon and my DMR.

 

If you're going to shoot in super low tungsten ambient light, set tungsten not Auto WB. and, if you can, shoot the first frame of a grey card so you can WB the whole set at once later.

 

We need to be sure we learn the idiosyncratic aspects of this camera before blaming the camera. Not that there won't be issues, (and these vey well may be issues), but let's get our processing defaults set up for it. No two cameras are the same.

 

I see what you're saying but it's not really relevant to the problem of this post I feel; this is an issue of the same subject in continuous lighting in sequence showing varying degrees on warmer or cooler images frame to frame when set to Auto WB and exposure is the only variable thats changed in whatever program. The differences are very obvious, it looks like looking at two different types of film stock. This shows inconsistency of the WB in my mind

 

My other digital cameras do not present this problem.

[MP3]

I've experienced exactly the same AWB 'issue' during our tests with v1.0.5 month ago, seems this is not addressed yet in the shippment firmware.

 

Having experienced that, I found the dng WB to be very accurate and neutral to the scene and C1 apparently did a good job in its M8 default color profile.

 

Can't figure out the AWB is hardware or firmware issue at the moment. With the high spotlight banding issue together, all we hope is Leica can respond instantly to keep the M8 flying high. Frankly, I can accept these issue to be fixed by fireware updates, though it is certainly not a pleasant experience for a 5 grand pro-level M.

 

Best

Matthew

[robsteve]

Andrew:

 

In your WB test did you use the motor drive and fire off a series of shots quickly? The DMR has a bug in the firmware regarding WB. The first shot will be correct and the next in a series will be wrong. This only occurs when firing a burst of shots and not on single shot mode. I am just wondering if the M8 has the same behavior.

[blovitch]

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How did you get the image into Aperture ? I thought Aperture did not work with the M8 / DMR ?

[mwilliamsphotography]

Aperture Version 1.5 recognizes DNGs.

 

Here's a M8 library page from Aperture where I shot my dark living room this AM @ 2500 using Aperture Preferred exposure and bracketed the EV. The WB was set to Tungsten and color temp remained consistent in every shot. I also varied the ISO and WB remained consistent then also.

 

I shot the same scene with the 5D, which is known for good high ISO performance. At 3200 it exhibited less noise in the darks than the M8 @ 2500 ... but typical of the 5D when set to Tungsten WB exhibited an uneven color cast in the mid value whites (purple cast). The Leica WB was more neutral.

 

The Leica also produced truer to life color in the plant stand and the glass table.

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[mwilliamsphotography]

So, is this WB issue with jpgs using Auto WB?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Not to me it doesn't at all. Personally i think there is some over reaction to some of these issues. First many are out there pushing the crap out of these sensors and expecting miracles. This is not how it works in digtal. There is a limit and a lot of this comes down to understanding what the sensor is capable of. Also the digital process is much different than film. Maybe i am over simplifying this to much but folks you need to work the camera and the files. your just not going to hit a home run every time. Wb is so subjective to what the scene is and the light in the scene, this is the main reason to shoot raw . I don't have this camera in my hands yet but have plenty of experience in digital and the DMR and the DMR has a WB bug in it and still is not bad at all. Anyway take your time these things take some time to figure them out and get them under your control. Also I truly believe there is a break in period with sensors, sounds strange but i really belive the files get better after a couple hundred exposures

[wattsy]

Aperture Version 1.5 recognizes DNGs.

 

Marc, are you sure about this? I just imported a bunch of M8 DNGs into Aperture 1.5.1 and it only recognises the 240x320 preview TIFF file within it. It doesn't recognise the RAW data at all. I can't see how you managed to work on the images within Aperture?

[clayh]

White balance and color cast can be fixed in software through some profiling and so forth.

 

However, the banding issue is something that is more than just pushing the crap out of the sensors. Sure, the lightsources in the banding examples are pegged-out and will be clipped. The problem is that they propagate and screw up the rest of your picture. I did a test yesterday with the M8 and my Canon 5D on a situation that causes banding in the Leica. The Canon handled it fine. The M8 fell on its butt. I like the camera, but until this is fixed, it is going to have limited utility for a lot of my work.

 

Not to me it doesn't at all. Personally i think there is some over reaction to some of these issues. First many are out there pushing the crap out of these sensors and expecting miracles. This is not how it works in digtal. There is a limit and a lot of this comes down to understanding what the sensor is capable of. Also the digital process is much different than film. Maybe i am over simplifying this to much but folks you need to work the camera and the files. your just not going to hit a home run every time. Wb is so subjective to what the scene is and the light in the scene, this is the main reason to shoot raw . I don't have this camera in my hands yet but have plenty of experience in digital and the DMR and the DMR has a WB bug in it and still is not bad at all. Anyway take your time these things take some time to figure them out and get them under your control. Also I truly believe there is a break in period with sensors, sounds strange but i really belive the files get better after a couple hundred exposures

[mwilliamsphotography]

Well kiss me bum Wattsy ... you're right !!!!

 

I only opened them in Aperture to see if the WB held true like it did in Capture One. I was looking at large previews.

 

I only tried it because I read that my DNG conversions from the Imacon MF back could be used in Aperture. The writer probably made the same error.

 

What stuff I've processed to print so far has been done in ACR and the Phase One software.

 

REAL nice prints. I like the look of them. Guy, I think you will like the results.

 

ISO 640 is very good. This is important for me because 400 to 500ish is the ISO I use most used at weddings. The amount of times I've set the 5D on 1600 or 3200 is minimal.

 

But even at the higher ISOs on the M8, I'm not getting the banding in the darks or anywhere I can detect ... and now I'm looking for it.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Thanks Marc from what i have been seeing so far , it looks really good and very close to the DMR in terms of color and saturation. I'm sure there will be some fine tweeking going on. The WB issue that folks are talking about is no concern to me . The one area is banding at the high ISO but I really have to try this to see what is going on. Of course shooting at 1250 for me will be rare so it is not worrying me much. The M8 is far ahead of the DMR out of thegate , we waited a long time for C1 and other programs to work with and still waiting for better firmware. if there is a firmware update coming for the banding than it will be a quick one in my opinion. I am just waiting on a black one to present itself and I am all over it. Still kicking myself for turning down the silver , i would be shooting right now. Oh well one of the rare times in recent history I am not the first, this maybe a good thing:D

[skimmel]

 

REAL nice prints. I like the look of them. Guy, I think you will like the results.

 

ISO 640 is very good. This is important for me because 400 to 500ish is the ISO I use most used at weddings. The amount of times I've set the 5D on 1600 or 3200 is minimal.

 

But even at the higher ISOs on the M8, I'm not getting the banding in the darks or anywhere I can detect ... and now I'm looking for it.

 

It's really great to hear that, in print, the results are nice. Are you able to make any (subjective) comparisons between prints from the M8 vs. those from film-based Ms?

[harmsr]

Auto WB seems to vary a lot, usually on the cool side in low light and too warm in very bright light. I'm dissappointed as my D200 does MUCH better.

 

The magenta cast which everyone talks about is also real and a problem. So far a slight correction in C1 has worked to eliminate it.

 

These first two issues should be fixable with C1 profiles and a firmware update, let's hope Leica gets on this QUICKLY.

 

The banding is also real and not just something we should have to deal with. A shot with the M8 that shows banding has NO banding when taken with my D200. That is UNACCEPTABLE from an M8. I hope that Leica can fix this rapidly. This is a "deal-breaker".

 

Ray

[mwilliamsphotography]

Yeah, I can say I don't like ISO 160 all that much. Prints feel more "digital" ... which means some will like it a lot : -) But then, I don't like the lower ISOs on the DMR either.

 

I never judge anything on screen, even full res. How the image prints is all I care about.

I've puled a dozen prints already.

 

I do like ISO 320, and love 640 a lot. ISO 1250 will be useable for the purposes I have for that ISO range.

 

Just doing snap shots right now ... getting used to the camera and the software.

 

Here's one of my wife's table center piece @ ISO 2500 using the 90AA handheld.

[mwilliamsphotography]

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[skimmel]

Yeah, I can say I don't like ISO 160 all that much. Prints feel more "digital" ... which means some will like it a lot : -) But then, I don't like the lower ISOs on the DMR either.

 

I never judge anything on screen, even full res. How the image prints is all I care about.

I've puled a dozen prints already.

 

I do like ISO 320, and love 640 a lot. ISO 1250 will be useable for the purposes I have for that ISO range.

 

Just doing snap shots right now ... getting used to the camera and the software.

 

Here's one of my wife's table center piece @ ISO 2500 using the 90AA handheld.

 

Thanks. What is about the higher ISOs that you like better?

[mwilliamsphotography]

Like the DMR images, they look more film like to me.

 

I have a lot of other digital cameras. I want this one to be different like the DMR is so I have different looks to draw on for different work.

 

I got this camera to shoot weddings with. I'll use it alongside a M7 with B&W film. I use a 1DsMKII for parts of a wedding, and a H2D/39 for the big stuff.

 

I can't seem to detect any banding when using C1 even when underexposing deliberately... and no magenta cast (which I did see in ACR). Are these issues when using jpg?