S2 to be shown in Paris 06/06

[sdai]

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1. regarding frame..if the camera is a 35mm camera and the sensor is less than 35mm than it is a cropped camera..I thought this was obvious and applies to all formats..and equally obvious.. all cameras have smaller frames than a 20x24in view camera, so? does that mean my 4x5 view camera is a cropped camera.. well if we go by your wacky definition then yes it is!

 

Well, go by your whacky definition, all point and shooters are full frame cameras because they are - what they are.

 

2. I can think of plenty of 3000sqft houses that are worth more than 5000sqft houses..it is not just about the size of the footprint.

 

That's true, a titanium D LUx4 costs more than many serious DSLRs ... you are right.

 

3. dirty tricks.. what are you talking about? Leica has never called a cropped format camera (see #1) full frame..all Leica is doing is raising the standard.

 

But they called it Medium Format, and that's a big NO NO ... 30x45 is in no way medium format in any dictionary. LOL

 

By the way, are Al Moore and Paul Moore two different IDs of the same person?

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[pascal_meheut]

Whoah, another Internet "I know it all and I'll correct your typos instead of arguing a point" genius who'll make it to the wonderful "ignore list" function of this forum

[stevelap]

......But they called it Medium Format, and that's a big NO NO ... 30x45 is in no way medium format in any dictionary. LOL.......

 

 

I'm sure you wouldn't want to spread misinformation Simon;) so it's worth remembering that Leica don't refer to the S2 sensor as Medium Format.....they refer to it as Leica Pro Format or Middle Format.

[paulmoore]

But they called it Medium Format, and that's a big NO NO ... 30x45 is in no way medium format in any dictionary. LOL

 

By the way, are Al Moore and Paul Moore two different IDs of the same person?

 

of course point and shoots are full frame.. all things do not revolve around the film format of 35mm.. I feel the new Leica format will exceed the quality of 120 film, aka "medium format" I think Leica refers to it as "Lecia Format".. again get over the old film terminology, like the film, it is dead. " Medium Format" is any film camera that uses 120 film...The use of this label on digital cameras is misleading and confusing..yes, there are digital sensors that fit on 120 film cameras and the use of digitalbacks on these cameras were termed mediumformat digital but with the advent of FF dslrs that equaled the quality of 22mp backs new terms were needed..if you insist on using "medium format" for digital please tell me what digital camera is "large format"? there isn't any, only not-so-big sensors that attach to "large format" film cameras. Luminance Landscape forum has listened to my suggestion of changing terminology, what use to be called medium-format digital backs is now "digital backs & large sensor photography" recognizing that everything from FF dslrs to 60mp digital backs are not that different and cover what most professionals use..just as in the OLD film days medium & large format did.

 

I have only one ID as I am sure Al does as well.

[dfarkas]

But they called it Medium Format, and that's a big NO NO ... 30x45 is in no way medium format in any dictionary. LOL

 

As I have said many, many times before....

 

Nobody minds when Hasselblad says that the H3DII-31 is medium format.

 

Nobody minds when Phase One says that the P30+ or new P40+ is medium format.

 

Nobody minds when Leaf says that the AptusII-6 is medium format.

 

These are all 33x44mm sensors. The S2 uses a 30x45mm sensor. There is a measly 7% difference in size. If you crop the Hassy, Phase, or Leaf to 2:3 ratio (my preferred ratio), the Leica's sensor area is actually larger.

 

People even call the Hasselblad CFV-II a medium format. It is only 36x36mm. When cropped to 2:3, you only have 24x36mm (ie FF 35mm).

 

The way that I look at it is this: I get astounding quality from my M8.2 files at only 10MP. My 20x30 inch prints look amazing with no uprezzing, hocus-pocus, etc. The S2 represents nearly four times the amount of captured information as an M8 with cutting edge sensor and image processing tech. Is it 4x the resolution? No. But for my practical purpose, it allows me to print 4x larger (40x60 in) at the same quality level I get now (or maybe even better).

 

That's it. Bottom line is the S2 will have phenomenal image quality that will not be hampered in any way by lens limitations. Great sensor, great body, super-fast interface and processing, and world-class lenses without compromise.

 

And Georg, thanks for your compliment. It means a lot to me. I've worked very hard to have the most accurate and comprehensive S2 coverage. Stay tuned for more as we get closer to launch (yes, it will launch on time).

 

David

[mjh]

Because they own a lot of MF lenses already and they want to use them with their new bodies i guess. Will the S2 allow this?

Selling DSLR bodies is a means to an end, namely selling lenses. That’s kind of a universal truth in the industry. Leica is launching a new camera system and surely wants to sell the senses designed for it. If you happen to have lots of Hasselblad glass or whatever lying around, there are state-of-the-art cameras to go with it. At reasonable prices, too. Getting an S2 and somehow retrofitting incompatible lenses designed for a different camera system doesn’t make much sense.

[jrc]

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I think it will be several years before the the Canon/Nikon hi-res bodies become a threat to the S2; they are already pushing the limits on the pixels they can squeeze into a standard 35mm sensor while keeping noise under control (assuming no revolutionary change in technology), and if the S2 sensor is to Canon/Nikon as the M8 sensor is to Canon/Nikon, then I would expect the S2 to be well ahead.

 

The two biggest S2 concerns are:

 

1) Marketing. The economy is terrible and the dollar promises to grow weaker vis-a-vis the euro, which may further damage the North American market, and, for most cases, the much cheaper D3x and the upcoming Canons are "good enough" for virtually any print uses. The 35mm systems also offer corporate stability and much broader and deeper systems. They may *not* ever offer ultimate IQ as good as the S2's (if Leica's promises are kept), but they are easily "good enough." Given the likely price of a full S2 system, that's a huge problem.

 

2. The other systems are dropping in price, and I believe in the next couple of years will offer sensors with higher mega-pixel counts and other attributes that will more than match Leica's, at a lower cost. The used market also comes into play here -- as resolution and other aspects climb, more and more Phases and Hassy used systems will become available, probably at prices much lower than Leica's, and make these systems the better "starter" systems for new pros...and once you're in a system, with glass, it's costly to get out. Leica offers no "step-up" options, and won't, at least for many years.

 

I would have preferred to see Leica cut a deal (if it's possible) to sell glass for one of the other systems, and use the profits to build a modern M9 and R10.

 

JC

[sdai]

As I have said many, many times before....

 

Nobody minds when Hasselblad says that the H3DII-31 is medium format.

 

Nobody minds when Phase One says that the P30+ or new P40+ is medium format.

 

Nobody minds when Leaf says that the AptusII-6 is medium format.

 

These are really arguments purely for sake of argument, like I've also said, as long as it takes good pictures, no one would care about the way it is called.

 

The only success Leica has achieved by pre-announcing the S2 is stirring up controversies on the web and pumping up forum members' blood pressure.

 

While other dealers are making money from the Hassy and Phase Ones, were you able to collect a dime from the S2? I don't think so.

[haribo]

Whoah, another Internet "I know it all and I'll correct your typos instead of arguing a point" genius who'll make it to the wonderful "ignore list" function of this forum

 

Likewise.

[mooky]

haribo,,,,,,,,, It's chill-pill time.

[AlanG]

...That is a far cry from a year ago when it was Canon and M8 shooters mostly. Plus a few MF shooters. Folks are looking at price and ability right now. I wish Leica luck on this but no way am i even considering it for a long time. One because of the market and 2 it is not ready for me until it actually makes some sense in all the depts. that make it a true viable working system on all the touch points.

 

That is the bottom line. Why does one really need an S2? And how can you justify the cost? (E.g. will the client pay more for me to use it?)

 

Yes times are tough for pros. Although this year, my business has "picked up" to the point that my income is almost half of what it was at this point two years ago. I may even have more jobs, but the clients are much cheaper. So this alone precludes me getting an MF system.

 

But overall, one has to assess the advantages and disadvantages of getting any specific system. For my work, I have a very hard time seeing many advantages to the S2 or any other MF system. I am eagerly awaiting the Canon 17mm TSE which really has no competition.

 

I very often shoot panoramic interiors and exteriors, so the 5DII provides more than enough resolution for that, and is very convenient to use. (I recently made 2x10 foot prints for one client.) So that leaves photographing people. I do that occasionally for lifestyle ads and also find the 5DII good enough for that and very versatile.

 

My thought is that you might have to be a high end fashion, portrait, or still life shooter, to really value the S2 or other MF SLR camera. And in my opinion, the 5DII and 24-105 are already too sharp for a lot of portrait work.

 

I'm loading some very recent 5DII examples. The first is a panoramic across a lake. It only took a few seconds to shoot. I shot this horizontally, hand held with a 24x105 zoom on the 5DII. In a 2x10 foot print, you can count every blade of grass and clearly see the golfers across the lake. So I can't see why I'd need a 37megapixel camera of this kind of photography.

 

The clubhouse panoramic was made in portrait mode with a pano head, 16-35 at 35mm f8. Again this is quick and easy and has more than enough resolution for a huge display.

 

The portrait of the retired Marine was shot real loose to layout allowing type to float on the background. I used a 70-200 at 200mm f2.8 for shallow dof. This will require the 350 f3.5 for the S2 to give a similar look. Would I buy one of these lenses for occasional use? Consider how versatile and convenient a 70-200 f2.8 IS lens is. Even as small as I shot him, the detail in the face is very good for a wide open lens. This will only be a full page ad so much of the detail is overkill.

 

Granted that the S2 should give a bit more detail. But considering the cost and lack of versatility - compared to the lens choices, convenience, and features of a DSLR (IS, live view, high ISO, etc.) how many applications will actually benefit from using one? Right now, I can't see enough reasons for me to justify it, and I have the money.

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[haribo]

haribo,,,,,,,,, It's chill-pill time.

 

Excuse me? I'm the one here who committed apparently heresy by voicing an opinion that differs slightly from the dominant religious beliefs here.

Which apparently gives some geniuses here permission to take things out of context and attack me with personal insults.

 

Do you mean I should take that chill-pill and shut up so that clowns like this pascal_meheut can freely walk all over me?

P-a-lease!

(as far as i remember he's one of those collectors of everything Leica who never ever took a photo in his life, yet keeps telling people how to do things and what to do with their money)

 

Sorry guys but all that's left for me to say is, this place degraded over time from being an excellent forum to a bloody joke.

[andybarton]

You have voiced an opinion that there is mo room for dissent from the Leica way here

 

Can I suggest that you take a look at the M8 section?

[wildlightphoto]

I'm loading some very recent 5DII examples.

 

Thanks for the examples, I'll wait for something better.

[paulmoore]

That is the bottom line. Why does one really need an S2? And how can you justify the cost? (E.g. will the client pay more for me to use it?)

 

...... Right now, I can't see enough reasons for me to justify it, and I have the money.

 

some nice shots alan,

I think it all comes down to that.. how to justify the costs..some of us will and most won't.

you are right, the trend commercially from clients is less demands on quality and higher demands on cost cutting. If you feel you are getting sufficient quality from the canon and like the process, then don't change that.. it is working for you. I have been getting by, but often times not using my dmr because it lacked the resolution needed for some shoots when a small camera was called for. So I have a desire to have the S2...I have always used the best equipment I could afford and for me that is part of the joy I get from the business, I think that justifies it for me..

I like the process when I am shooting with quality equipment..Clients will pay more because I will charge more for equipment rental and digital capture on my line items.. it won't really effect my creative fees, but I have managed to pay for some good stuff by billing this way. Hundreds and hundreds of jobs billed with this and no one has come back to me and said.. what is up with charging an equipment rental? or capture fee.

So if the clients are helping cover my costs on these I would rather it be on equipment I have a real affinity for..cause the more I am into the process, with passion and enjoyment, there is a chance the results will be enhanced.

[dfarkas]

While other dealers are making money from the Hassy and Phase Ones, were you able to collect a dime from the S2? I don't think so.

 

No. We don't require deposits for pre-orders.

 

You are correct. I could have been selling my customers DL28 and DL33 kits from Mamiya/Leaf, or D3x or 1DsIII's (we are dealers for all these brands) in the meantime. But, knowing what the S2 will offer and knowing how close it is to release, I wouldn't feel right in doing so. Even having access to all these wonderful systems as a dealer, I am personally holding off until the S2, because based on what I know and what I've seen, it will be an ideal system for me. Why would I peddle goods that I know to be less than what I would choose myself, just for sake of a quick buck today? That kind of business is pretty short-sighted and I always try to build long-term relationships based on trust and honest advice. So, while I haven't collected a dime, I hope that I have at least built up some good will and maintained my integrity.

 

I appreciate your concern, though.

 

David

[AlanG]

Thanks for the examples, I'll wait for something better.

 

I am trying to give the insight of a working pro. I know your view on everything photographic is unique to your perspective. So you can drop the condescension every time I try to say why so many people are happy with the results they are getting with their current "lesser" gear. Perhaps you can try to understand that this is a simple fact that will affect S2 sales.

 

I don't know how many jobs you've shot or how many clients you've had to please, but I've shot thousands of jobs and had to please hundreds of clients. So my posts are targeted at those who might appreciate this point of view. I'd be glad to direct you to the locations of my photos so you can shoot your own panoramic images for comparison. When I have to walk up within a foot of a 2x10 foot print to examine all of the detail, I figure it will be good enough for my clients even if that is not good enough for you.

 

Here is an email I just received from the client that got the big prints:

-----------------------------------------------------------

By the way I got the prints today. AMAZING!!!!

 

Thank you,

 

Erin

---------------------------------------

 

And one from client for the clubhouse:

 

Alan,

 

I am in awe over this picture. It turned out wonderfully. I can’t wait to see the rest of them!!

 

Thanks,

 

Melissa

______________________________

 

 

I know some cameras and lenses can produce more detail but there are always trade-offs.

 

This was made with an original 5D and the 24-105. I don't generally need much more detail in this kind of photo although this is only made with a 12 megapixel camera and a zoom lens. So there is a lot of "better" gear out there that still doesn't cost nearly as much as an S2 and its lenses. The original ad was a different shot of just the girl in front. (I shot the two of them plus the cat for fun.) I posted medium res proofs and the client quickly ran that in the ad instead of even getting high res adjusted files from me. That's how it often is these days.

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[carstenw]

Frankly, I think Leica's approach is just idiotic. Why announcing something when you got absolutely nothing to show in the first place? (mock-ups don't count)

 

Well, that's not quite accurate: they had working prototypes of the cameras and 70mm and 180mm lenses. Leica was often criticized for being secretive and so they took the opportunity to get the prototypes out there early this time, and get feedback from pros. One result is the added AF-L button. I think it makes sense.

 

When it comes to digital backs Phase One is on top of the game and Hasselblad the runner up. Digital backs are what matter most in digital MF photography. Plus, either one of the two companies has fine glass available. Which means, for me there's no reason to wait for a product that has nothing to add to the party.

 

I think that Hasselblad changed the game when they were joined with Imacon. Slowly but surely they have built up the most complete system on the market, and the lenses are of a uniformly high standard. The Phase backs are likely at least as good, but the Mamiya camera and lenses aren't. The camera needs an update, with faster AF, a waist-level finder, and so on, and although the D lenses are very good, there aren't that many of them. And then there is the HTS. IMO Hasselblad is ahead.

 

I don't have anything MF currently but will invest within the next couple months into a P40+ back, PhaseOne body and lenses.

 

If you are waiting two months anyway, why not wait three? It makes little sense to invest so soon before the release of a major system. I expect the Leica lenses to be noticeably sharper in the corners than certain Mamiya wide-angle lenses, and certain Leica lenses to be better than their Hasselblad counterparts. I also expect the camera to be faster, and it delivers DNG out of the box. It has a lot of advantages, and I don't see any reason not to watch before deciding. If you don't like it in the end, you might just luck into another round of price-drops from your preferred brand.

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[AlanG]

...Clients will pay more because I will charge more for equipment rental and digital capture on my line items.. it won't really effect my creative fees, but I have managed to pay for some good stuff by billing this way. Hundreds and hundreds of jobs billed with this and no one has come back to me and said.. what is up with charging an equipment rental? or capture fee.

So if the clients are helping cover my costs on these I would rather it be on equipment I have a real affinity for..cause the more I am into the process, with passion and enjoyment, there is a chance the results will be enhanced.

 

I am very glad for you and I clearly need to get better clients. A few years ago, I didn't have any problem charging for this and that. Now they question everything. I used to work with stylists and make-up artists. Not so much now.

 

When I say that work has improved some this year vs. last year it is only due to the fact that I have agreed to work within my clients' budgets. Now I frequently work without an assistant because that would come out of my profit. Whereas I often worked with two assistants in the past. So I am working harder for less money, just as all of my clients are doing. (The ones who are still in business or haven't gotten laid off.) There are numerous ways my images are often being compromised as a result, but resolution isn't one of them.

[paulmoore]

I am very glad for you and I clearly need to get better clients. A.

 

I was not gloating, but you asked how one could justify the purchase of the S2.

I mentioned earlier that it is more and more a challenge to keep rates and expenses at an exceptable level with the clients pushing hard the other way. Your image of the girls is a prime example of what I use to shoot in film with a medium format camera..and looks just as good! Despite giving my own brother grief he shoots a canon for a national fast food chain for their ad and pos work..so I know the abilities of a full frame dslr.. but I want just a bit more.