Banding, some more tests

[pascal_meheut]

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Sean, I'm using a WhiBal too but still got strange skin tones when color temperature is around 2400K which is quite unusual, I have to admit.

 

BTW, I did not encouter such issues in my "real" life use of the M8 neither but when shooting around just to play with the camera. My "normal" pictures are ok.

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[robsteve]

Fujifilm's SCCD sensor in the S3 does not show this blooming to anywhere near this degree seen here

an example taken at ISO 800

with a crop, unprocessed from the jpg captured

it is sometimes difficult to distinguish blooming from CA, but I think the problem we are seeing here in many M8 photos is sensor bloom & not lens related

larger versions, shooting information and other samples with full resolution unprocessed crops can be found here -------> High ISO Photo Gallery by Artichoke Vinagrette at pbase.com

 

The difference between your photo and the M8 photos having problems is your light is properly exposed. You exposed for the bright sign. If you exposed so the majority of siding of the building was properly exposed, the lights would be well beyond proper exposure.

[sean_reid]

Sean, I'm using a WhiBal too but still got strange skin tones when color temperature is around 2400K which is quite unusual, I have to admit.

 

BTW, I did not encouter such issues in my "real" life use of the M8 neither but when shooting around just to play with the camera. My "normal" pictures are ok.

 

Hi Pascal,

 

Tell more about the lighting that gave you strange skin tones even when sampling from a WhiBal. Thanks.

 

Sean

[sergiolov]

After having examined all the files showing the light streaks, and particularly this one,(well I hope it appears in reply,as this is the first time I try uploading images) I dare to express the following preliminary considerations.

As you can see, streaks are from the center to the left OR to the right of images, depending on spotlight position. Now the Kodak sensor has 2 horizontal outputs, and this means that the problem IS related to the reading channels, as many pointed in previous posts.It is not banding,it is not blooming, to which BTW the Kodak sensor is particularly resistent, up to 1000 times the saturation level.

This is with every probability a Kodak related hardware problem. The sensor seems faulty,if this particular batch only ,or by design, that seems impossible, we don't know.

What can Leica do in this situation?

Considering theyr high attention to quality, and to preserve theyr reputation, they probably need to stop shipments and recall sooner or later all cameras.

Sergio Lovisolo

 

In case the file has not uploaded, this is the link (post 59)

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digitalforum/8511-bandingproblem-mit-m8-3.html

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[rvaubel]

Sean

 

Dark rooms with intense spotlights are very much of my "real world" as I photograph fashion shows regularly...........

So, I'm sorry that you continue to believe that shooting into lights is a contrived situation - I do it quite often....if you are near the stage at a show, you'd probably be shooting up into the lights........

I expect that Leica will understand the relevance of this problem quickly, and am confident that they will make every effort to solve it.

 

Edmund

 

It is important that the Leica be able to perform while shooting into bright lights. I think the point that Sean and others (myself included) have made, is we didn't notice it until now. Once the condition is under a microscope it seems obvious. But, in fact, few shots are effected but those that are could be the ones you want.

 

As an interesting aside, Mark Norton has done some test today that would indicate that the RD1 has an problem also, but in the opposite direction. Well I've shot over 10,000 frames with my RD1 and never noticed it. Of course I'm going to confirm marks tests but I wouldn't be surprised if he's right.

 

I must say that in hindsight I did see some banding even with the first Photokina JPEGs. I just never made a big deal of it at the time. I just sort of filed it in the back of my brain. In retrospect, I should have realized the importance of the issue with regards to exposition shooting.

 

I must admit that it is kind of interesting that the banding issue slipped through considering all the scrutiny. But thats not the same thing as saying that Leica is totally remiss in not catching it sooner. Much less the reviewers

 

We all want the same thing from the M8 so lets constructively try to figure out what the banding issue is, and what causes it, so that a solution can be found.

 

Rex

[Artichoke]

which is a critical matter for this kind of photography, I was clearly responding to a prior poster, whom I quoted, that blooming is not a problem with all CCD designs

in the sample I posted, please note the complete absence of artifact about the bright light sources ...no blooming nor any banding

I certainly hope the M8's sensor problems are related to exposure, but from what I have seen so far, I have my doubts

I very much want a digital RF ...the first two on the market may not be the one for me

but I am keeping my hopes up for the M8 ...low light performance is critical as this is the genre of photography I intend to do with my RF ...maybe the problem is with the newer firm ware as I do not recall seeing this with photographs taken using the older firmware version

I need to see more full resolution unprocessed samples or DNGs before I take the plunge

[eronald]

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[quote name=adan

2) As I recall, the Canon 1Ds MkI and Nikon D200 both had banding issues.[/quote]

 

Sean,

I was simply trying to say that banding is a real pest for some of us.

 

Adan,

The 1Ds indeed had some serious non-homogeneity issues when it came out. In my case sensor replacement minimized the non-homogeneity of the image, and also gave me much better hi-iso behavior. I believe that Canon did this for all customers who documented their complaints as image quality of the flagship model is important to them. I still continue to use the 1Ds as I find it superior in image quality to its successor for photographing people.

 

Edmund

[pascal_meheut]

Halogen lamp like the picture, directed at my white ceiling.

 

You can see what the colors look like and the proof I'm using a WhiBal on the picture on the left

The picture on the right is the same with my custom profile: not perfect yet but the skin tones are closer to the DMR one and the blue of my son's pajamas is much more realistic.

 

Sorry, I had no top model at home this week to illustrate the problem Going to bed now, talk to you tomorrow.

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[sean_reid]

Halogen lamp like the picture, directed at my white ceiling.

 

You can see what the colors look like and the proof I'm using a WhiBal on the picture on the left

The picture on the right is the same with my custom profile: not perfect yet but the skin tones are closer to the DMR one and the blue of my son's pajamas is much more realistic.

 

Sorry, I had no top model at home this week to illustrate the problem Going to bed now, talk to you tomorrow.

 

Hi Pascal,

 

Thanks. This coming week I'll try to reproduce that and see of color is off under that type of lighting.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Halogen lamp like the picture, directed at my white ceiling.

 

You can see what the colors look like and the proof I'm using a WhiBal on the picture on the left

The picture on the right is the same with my custom profile: not perfect yet but the skin tones are closer to the DMR one and the blue of my son's pajamas is much more realistic.

 

Sorry, I had no top model at home this week to illustrate the problem Going to bed now, talk to you tomorrow.

 

Hi Pascal,

 

Thanks. This coming week I'll try to reproduce that and see if the color I get is off under that type of lighting.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robsteve]

Is this magenta color cast maybe associated with the operating system. For example are the people not having the magenta cast problem using a different version of the Mac OS or maybe Windows machines?

[clayh]

I'm wondering if this banding issue may be a total show-stopper. Talk about blowing your big toe off! This is not like some one in a million situation that makes it occur. For the sort of photos I shoot, it is more like one in three.

 

I now have the M8, and I have to admit to liking about 97% of the camera. But am I the only one who is feeling a little like a chump? This banding represents a pretty major hurdle to get over when you pay this sort of money for a camera. Surely, this will be a warranty item, and Leica will fix it, won't they? I hope they issue a statement very soon, because what has been popping up online over the last two days is likely to radically affect their sales.

 

Leica?? We're waiting.

[rvaubel]

I'm wondering if this banding issue may be a total show-stopper.

 

I now have the M8, and I have to admit to liking about 97% of the camera. But a Surely, this will be a warranty item, and Leica will fix it, won't they? I hope they issue a statement very soon, because what has been popping up online over the last two days is likely to radically affect their sales.

 

Leica?? We're waiting.

 

Clayh

 

Tommorrow is the first business day since the issue came up.

Let's give them a chance to be made aware of our concerns.

 

Rex

[clayh]

Clayh

 

Tommorrow is the first business day since the issue came up.

Let's give them a chance to be made aware of our concerns.

 

Rex

 

Well, sure. I am just sort of thinking out loud here. Leica has a lot riding on the success of the M8, and they have every incentive in the world to make it right.

 

Right now, I am getting some samples of the problem ready to upload. It pops up in some pretty ordinary circumstances that you might run into. Give me an hour and I'll have them uploaded.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Okay, I surrender.

 

I can't seem to make my M8 band.

 

I shot twinkle lights against dark, medium and lighter backgrounds, in focus, out of focus, over and under exposed.

 

I just shot one of my overhead lights, directly at it, and comped the EV +3 (see attached)

 

Nothing.

 

I've included a severe crop from a ISO 2500 shot of the Russian Photographer Irakly Shanidze in the entrance to my studio (fondling his Chrome M8 : -). The light adjacent to him should cause banding through his silhouette shouldn't it?

 

The example of the banding running through the persons head that were shown above are awful. I'd not accept that either.

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[mwilliamsphotography]

Interesting ... In the upload I can see a faint hint of banding in the photo of the overhead light (to the left of the light). It doesn't show in the full screen version, and most certainly not in the print.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Well if this is an issue, I haven't shelled out one red cent yet ...

 

Hopefully it won't be cause this camera is a God sent for the work I do.

[reddawn]

I'm very disappointed in the banding of the M8. It is showing up on my M8 also with firmware 1.06 .

 

No this is NOT something which we need to learn to shoot around!!!!!!!!! It needs to be fixed.

 

My $1600 D200 body does not have banding issues where the M8 does. I took identical shots at the same ISO and same exposures with both cameras. The M8 exhibits banding and the D200 does not.

 

Ray

 

I agree that we should not adopt the attitude of "learing to shoot around the problem". I think in order for Leica to fix it we as users must first acknowledge there is a problem

 

If one is shooting HCB style on the streets in daytime then this issue would definitely be a non issue

 

As other posters have mentioned, some of us use the M in a variety of indoor situations. For me that includes concert halls with bright stage lights, church interiors with strong artificial / natural light sources, wedding dinner reception halls with fancy chandeliers & overhead lights and exhibition / exposition halls with bright ceiling lights. (that's why I was very concerned about the Photokina samples as those were "normal" situations to me and I do have a major event company client for whom I do a lot of these exposition hall shooting)

 

Let's wait patiently for Leica to give us an answer when Sean discussed this with them.

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[clayh]

As promised, some crops from an ordinary picture taking scenario in my kitchen. I took a spot meter out and measured the lamp shown on the left side of the crop. It is EV 12. The wall behind it is EV4. This is not an extreme brightness range and is well within what you could find anywhere inside with artificial lighting. I took 5 shots at ISO160,320,640,1250,2500. I kept the aperture the same. I processed all through Capture One. I used the same color balance on all pictures and -20 on the magenta. Processed to tiff files and then downsampled and saved as jpeg with quality high (90) in photoshop. Here they are.

 

As you can see, the problem is beginning to show up at ISO640, and is very evident at 1250 and 2500, precisely the ISO's typically used indoors at night without a flash. If you look hard at the tiff file, you can actually see faint hints of banding even at ISO320!

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[fuchs]

Interesting ... In the upload I can see a faint hint of banding in the photo of the overhead light (to the left of the light). It doesn't show in the full screen version, and most certainly not in the print.

 

Marc, it looks more like a jpeg compression artifact (a slight posterization) than sensor streaking to me.

 

As an aside, your experience seems to point that not all cameras are affected by this issue. Perhaps (let's hope) it's related to only some sensors or batch defects and not to a more difficult to overcome sensor design flaw.

 

Best,

Ed