Lfi 4/2009

[marknorton]

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Lots of new information in this edition of LFI to make us feel positive about the S2. The article focusses (pardon the pun) on the AF capabilities of the new camera and it's clear Leica have gone to great lengths to get it right. What a great advantage to be able to start from a blank sheet of paper instead of having all the legacy baggage of the likes of Nikon and Canon. I think we can look forward to the S2 with confidence, at least from a technical point of view. Of course, the pricing is likely to be a challenge to its commercial success but it will certainly be interesting to see how the thing develops over the next few months.

[andybarton]

You only have to wait 4 months, Mark...

[markowich]

Lots of new information in this edition of LFI to make us feel positive about the S2. The article focusses (pardon the pun) on the AF capabilities of the new camera and it's clear Leica have gone to great lengths to get it right. What a great advantage to be able to start from a blank sheet of paper instead of having all the legacy baggage of the likes of Nikon and Canon. I think we can look forward to the S2 with confidence, at least from a technical point of view. Of course, the pricing is likely to be a challenge to its commercial success but it will certainly be interesting to see how the thing develops over the next few months.

 

nice to hear that the S2 is going to beat nikon's 51-point 3D tracking autofocus system, which is sooo much bogged down by nikon's legacy baggage---))

peter

[Gentleman Villain]

The S2 isn't competing with Nikon 35mm

[marknorton]

The S2 is clearly not going to compete with the Nikon system in terms of complexity or speed but may very well be more accurate. In particular, it takes account of focus shift in each lens - difficult to know exactly but it looks as if the lens will refocus before the exposure based on a table of corrections built into the lens - using both shooting distance and working aperture to determine what is required. It means the S2 can provide a level of focussing accuracy which current M lenses can never provide.

 

For the sort of photography I do with my D3x - which might conceivably be done by an S2 - I use as single focus point not the all singing all dancing 51 point variant. If Leica can deliver better focus than the Nikon in that mode of operation, that will be a technical triumph.

[Gentleman Villain]

Photographers that are very concerned with critical sharpness will often switch between manual focus and single-point autofocus because they want complete control over the focal plane. I thought that the S2's single point AF combined with a smooth operating manual focus option showed that Leica understands the demanding professional market very well. The promise of corrections for focus shift is simply ground-breaking...as far as I know...there aren't any other professional camera systems that correct for focus shift.

[sdai]

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In particular, it takes account of focus shift in each lens - difficult to know exactly but it looks as if the lens will refocus before the exposure based on a table of corrections built into the lens - using both shooting distance and working aperture to determine what is required. It means the S2 can provide a level of focussing accuracy which current M lenses can never provide.

 

This is basically no different from what Nikon and Canon are doing with AF fine tuning. Leica may have much tighter tolerance so they use precalculate values to add slight front focus to compensate the shift, while the adjustment needed by a Nikon or Canon lens may varies from copy to another.

 

It's pretty amazing to hear when Nikon or Canon do this people say that because of their lousy QC, when it comes to Leica it's called a revolution. LOL

 

For ultimate focusing accuracy, nothing beats a good manual focusing system letting you focus critically at the shooting aperture, or simply go far live view then it's a none issue.

[dfarkas]

This is basically no different from what Nikon and Canon are doing with AF fine tuning. Leica may have much tighter tolerance so they use precalculate values to add slight front focus to compensate the shift, while the adjustment needed by a Nikon or Canon lens may varies from copy to another.

 

It's pretty amazing to hear when Nikon or Canon do this people say that because of their lousy QC, when it comes to Leica it's called a revolution. LOL

 

For ultimate focusing accuracy, nothing beats a good manual focusing system letting you focus critically at the shooting aperture, or simply go far live view then it's a none issue.

 

Actually, the AF Fine Tune of Nikon and Canon only partially correct sample-variation front/back focus problems. The adjustment is linear and singular. It only corrects for front or back focus wide open due to sample variation. What it doesn't fix is focus shift due to aperture changes, zoom changes or distance.

 

I tested a Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS on a 1DsIII with the Lens Align target. It was focused correctly at 200mm, but at 100mm required +20 adjustment (the max). Unfortunately, you cannot adjust based on multiple data points. So, you can only correct for one focal length in a zoom range at a particular distance.

 

Also, as you stop a lens down, the plane of focus will shift slightly. Usually, the increase in depth-of-field will cover this up, but it is there nonetheless. The system Leica is employing with the S lenses measures the effective aperture, distance to subject and corresponding shift with these variables. The AF system then uses this data to give precise focus. The other difference is that the Canon and Nikon systems use the body to AF Tune lenses. The S lenses have the fine tuning encoded into a chip in each lens at the factory, allowing a lens to provide any S body it is mounted on to use the data without user measurement or intervention.

 

David

[delander †]

 

Also, as you stop a lens down, the plane of focus will shift slightly. Usually, the increase in depth-of-field will cover this up, but it is there nonetheless. The system Leica is employing with the S lenses measures the effective aperture, distance to subject and corresponding shift with these variables. The AF system then uses this data to give precise focus. The other difference is that the Canon and Nikon systems use the body to AF Tune lenses. The S lenses have the fine tuning encoded into a chip in each lens at the factory, allowing a lens to provide any S body it is mounted on to use the data without user measurement or intervention.

 

David

 

Well Canon/Nikon have working AF adjust systems, I think we will have to wait and see if the promise offered by the Leica AF tuning actually delivers.

 

Presumably this will be a camera that can be accurately manually focused?

 

Jeff

[dfarkas]

Well Canon/Nikon have working AF adjust systems, I think we will have to wait and see if the promise offered by the Leica AF tuning actually delivers.

 

Presumably this will be a camera that can be accurately manually focused?

 

Jeff

 

The S2 is easy to manual focus. Big, bright viewfinder. Perfect focus drag on the focus ring. Interchangeable focus screens (microprism, split image, matte). Images snapped into clear focus when I tried it.

 

That being said, the product manager told me of their internal testing where they shot focus test sequences, both manual and with auto-focus. Out of all the human subjects who shot manual focus sequences (Leica engineers, mostly), all were beat by a significant margin by the AF system.

 

David

[sdai]

The S lenses have the fine tuning encoded into a chip in each lens at the factory, allowing a lens to provide any S body it is mounted on to use the data without user measurement or intervention.

 

This is basically what I was saying in my previous post.

 

We all understand that Leica has much tighter tolerance control so they can pre-program a preset compensation value in the chip because there will be virtually no sample variations.

 

Sample variations with Nikon, Canon lenses are more noticeable, then they leave the amount of adjustment to the photographers themselves.

 

There's only one zoomer in the proposed S lineup so your example with the 70-200/2.8L doesn't really apply in this comparison. The 30-90 happens to be one of those I'm most interested in so I'm really curious to see what they'll do with it.

 

You can also pre-calibrate your Nikon, Canon lenses at different apertures and save multiple sets of values in the camera, which is really no big deal.

 

Of course, if you've got a bad copy totally out of whack then nothing can do it a justice. For the price difference between a Nikon/Canon and a Leica, people should not have the same level of expectations.

[sdai]

That being said, the product manager told me of their internal testing where they shot focus test sequences, both manual and with auto-focus. Out of all the human subjects who shot manual focus sequences (Leica engineers, mostly), all were beat by a significant margin by the AF system.

 

That sounds very promising, good AF should work at least as good as a decent manual focus system in fair lighting condition and should beat manual focus in low light condition.

 

I'm looking forward to trying the S2 myself when it comes to a place close to me. I've sold 3 of my Summilux Rs (35/50/80) on eBay over the past few weeks, in light of a full AF lineup of future Leica cameras/lenses, these f/1.4 or even faster lenses are the worst ones which will suffer from focusing problems.

 

I'm ready for the "revolution".

[dfarkas]

We all understand that Leica has much tighter tolerance control so they can pre-program a preset compensation value in the chip because there will be no sample variations.

 

Sample variations with Nikon, Canon lenses are more noticeable, then they leave the amount of adjustment to the photographers themselves.

 

There is always some sample variation due to manufacturing tolerance, even at Leica, which is why each and every S lens will hit the test bench for calibration and data encoding.

 

You can also pre-calibrate your Nikon, Canon lenses at different apertures and save multiple sets of values in the camera, which is really no big deal.

 

Actually, you can't. Both Nikon and Canon AF fine tune systems only allow one value per lens. And, even though there is a global AF adjust on both N and C, the correction is not additive. It merely overrides your individual lens corrections.

 

Of course, if you've got a bad copy totally out of whack then nothing can do it a justice. For the price difference between a Nikon/Canon and a Leica, people should not have the same level of expectations.

 

I'm not sure it is unreasonable to expect a $2000 lens (70-200 f/2.8L IS) to focus properly on an $8000 body (1DsIII). The entire concept of customer-based AF fine tune is very much like the "whitewashing the fence" episode in Tom Sawyer.

 

David

[sdai]

There is always some sample variation due to manufacturing tolerance, even at Leica, which is why each and every S lens will hit the test bench for calibration and data encoding.

 

It's great to hear this though it only means more money to spend, even the craziest gearhead should be satisfied then.

 

This would also mean that lenses calibrated on one body may not work at their full potential on another body.

 

Actually, you can't. Both Nikon and Canon AF fine tune systems only allow one value per lens. And, even though there is a global AF adjust on both N and C, the correction is not additive. It merely overrides your individual lens corrections.

 

There are tricks to workaround but I'm not giving it away for free. Basically, it's the difference between saving money by doing it yourself or paying Leica to do it.

 

I'm not sure it is unreasonable to expect a $2000 lens (70-200 f/2.8L IS) to focus properly on an $8000 body (1DsIII).

.

 

Between a $2000 Canon lens and a $5000 Leica lens, a $8000 Canon body and a 15000 Leica body, the amount of adjustment needed on a Canon camera/lens can be easily forgiven.

[t024484]

It's great to hear this though it only means more money to spend, even the craziest gearhead should be satisfied then.

 

This would also mean that lenses calibrated on one body may not work at their full potential on another body.

 

There are tricks to workaround but I'm not giving it away for free. Basically, it's the difference between saving money by doing it yourself or paying Leica to do it.

 

Between a $2000 Canon lens and a $5000 Leica lens, a $8000 Canon body and a 15000 Leica body, the amount of adjustment needed on a Canon camera/lens can be easily forgiven.

 

Man o man, when reading your postings, I cannot get past the idea that your motivation in live is to kick others against their legs.

In several cases you have not even fully read or tried to understand what someone is trying to tell.

I'm sure nobody is interested in your tricks, not even for free,

 

Hans

[delander †]

I would hope that the S2 AF does beat manual focusing for accuracy. I've tried many times to improve upon the AF of my 1ds3 and never managed it.

 

I've never adjusted the AF of my 1ds3 for any of the lenses, perhaps I should spend some time doing that.

 

Most people here are really looking forward to the S2 but also quite worried that pricewise that it will be significantly out their league. If it really does turn out to be something totally special there's going to be a lot angst concerning the justification/affordability of buying it.

 

As soon as a real user on this forum posts about how great it is there will be quite a few not able to keep their chequebook locked away.

 

Jeff

[leicar7]

For Dave,

 

I presume it will be possible to use the S2 lenses in manual mode with in-finder electronic focus verification, too, not just pure manual and pure AF. If that is the case do you suppose that the EFV will incorporate the electronic focus shift info? And will that work with ROM lenses?

[dfarkas]

For Dave,

 

I presume it will be possible to use the S2 lenses in manual mode with in-finder electronic focus verification, too, not just pure manual and pure AF. If that is the case do you suppose that the EFV will incorporate the electronic focus shift info? And will that work with ROM lenses?

 

Yes, the focus confirmation will use the focus shift data from the lens.

 

ROM R lenses won't fit on the S2. I would presume the next R camera to have the same technology in the new AF R lenses. Existing manual-focus R lenses won't have this data encoded.

 

David

[leicar7]

Oops, brain fart on the R lens question. Thanks.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[sdai]

Man o man, when reading your postings, I cannot get past the idea that your motivation in live is to kick others against their legs.

In several cases you have not even fully read or tried to understand what someone is trying to tell.

I'm sure nobody is interested in your tricks, not even for free,

 

Hans

 

I'm sorry if I've busted your bubbles for too many times, Hans. Hope you're feeling better now.