M8 vs DMR, very different colors in Capture One

[osera]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

And if you want to see another problem, here it is. We already saw it on some previously posted DNG but if someone can tell me the best way to remove this banding or if this is something we can expect a futur firmware to solve, I'll be grateful.

 

 

This is the first time I'm seeing this banding problem. It looks like the lines are at the levels of those bright lights, is that right? Would I be correct in assuming that this was hand held? Is the combination of the hi contrast bright lights and some minimal sensor movement thought to be associated with these bands?

[mitchell]

I'm ignorant when it comes to this type of discussion. (The only saving grace is I know it.)

 

I'm hoping to buy an M8 in Europe next week. Am I right in thinking that all the problems referred to here including the banding will eventually be addressed by a Leica firmware revision and/or C1 profile changes? In other words there will likely not be any permanent problems with a camera I buy? And I won't have to be a rocket scientist, like you guys, to implement necessary changes?

 

Thanks,

 

Mitchell

[pascal_meheut]

This is not the first time I see them. Remember the portrait of the guy with the beard someone posted a week ago ? It had banding too. I've attached it.

 

And yes, it comes from bright lights.

 

P.S for mitchell: yes, we can expect these problems to be solved. Calibration in C1 is nothing serious and the situation was much worse when the DMR came out for instance. And the M8 is not the first camera to show banding. It has been solved by other manufacturers before and it does not occurs all the time. Most of my tonight pictures are ok. So go for the M8, it is a fantastic camera and I like it. Just stressing it.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[mitchell]

Pascal,

 

Thanks for your answer. You, and knowledgeable others, perform a great service to those like me.

 

I appreciate it.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

[mike prevette]

The banding however is very hard to correct via firmware. It is a result of the circuitry of the sensor, and how it passes a charge down the row of pixels to the output terminal. It shows up when the sensor has it's gain turned up (high iso) and part of the sensor is exposed to a very bright light source. In order for the sensor to get that pixel data out it has to pass a signal down a row of active pixels to the output port, this causes interference that the other pixels pick up. Hence a band.

 

Much like film there is a learning curve here, and it takes a while to learn how to make photographs with a new piece of equipment. It might look and feel like an M but it is something totally different and new.

 

_mike

[Peter Branch]

And if you want to see another problem, here it is. We already saw it on some previously posted DNG but if someone can tell me the best way to remove this banding or if this is something we can expect a futur firmware to solve, I'll be grateful.

 

Pascal,

 

I have an identical problem. Mine has occured with a shot using a 24mm 2.8 Elmarit ASPH taken indoors with the ISO set to 2,500. The purpose of the shot was simply to test if the 6-bit code was being read correctly.

[etienne_werner]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

As some may recall the banding was "made" in to a big issue with the Nikon D200. Many cameras were return for recalibrating but some reported they still saw it. This happend also at lower ISO. I also have a D200, which I don't use that much, but have never seen this banding. (On the other hand, if I have to take a picture with extreme contrast, I will use the Fuji S3.)

Pascal, I think you are right to point this out, though I hope it doesn't turn in to the same frenzy as with the Nikon camera.

 

Rgds,

Etienne

[sean_reid]

Hi Pascal,

 

As I mentioned in the second review, I sometimes saw some light banding at ISO 2500 but nothing below that.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[vlasoye]

I was actually yesterday at the Photo plus expo in NY and did a few shots with M8 and I experienced a few banding problems... Not dramatic but still very much present.

cheers,

V>

[jrgeoffrion]

This is not the first time I see them. Remember the portrait of the guy with the beard someone posted a week ago ? It had banding too. I've attached it.

 

And yes, it comes from bright lights.

 

P.S for mitchell: yes, we can expect these problems to be solved. Calibration in C1 is nothing serious and the situation was much worse when the DMR came out for instance. And the M8 is not the first camera to show banding. It has been solved by other manufacturers before and it does not occurs all the time. Most of my tonight pictures are ok. So go for the M8, it is a fantastic camera and I like it. Just stressing it.

 

The banding appears to come from the photosites being oversaturated with light and blooming into the next pixels. Since the blooming seems severe and the CCD information looks like it is downloaded horizontally, it looks like it is streaking across most of the frame depending on the strength of the oversaturation.

 

This is not the same as shadow banding at all... And actually concerns me enough that I'm considering canceling my order until this gets resolved since I only shoot in low light.

[sean_reid]

I just looked through a bunch of ISO 2500 pictures made with the production M8 and only found light banding in one of them. I haven't found any in a picture at 1250. It must be triggered by something quite specific.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[jrgeoffrion]

I just looked through a bunch of ISO 2500 pictures made with the production M8 and only found light banding in one of them. I haven't found any in a picture at 1250. It must be triggered by something quite specific.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean,

 

Did any of the images you looked through contained light sources by any chance?

[robsteve]

I just looked through a bunch of ISO 2500 pictures made with the production M8 and only found light banding in one of them. I haven't found any in a picture at 1250. It must be triggered by something quite specific.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I remember somebody posting something similar with the DMR and the only way I could duplicate it was to have my cell phone close to the DMR when shooting

[sean_reid]

Sean,

 

Did any of the images you looked through contained light sources by any chance?

 

Yes, good question. In one series there was a bare light bulb (incandescent) in the frame. I've just gone through at least 50 ISO 2500 pictures and have only seen this in two pictures now but both of these pictures did have that bare bulb in them and the banding (which is pretty mild and doesn't extend across the frame) is at the same "lattitude" as the bulb. I really had to look to find the banding even in those two frames.

 

These were pictures of vendors cooking and selling food on the street. I also have one at ISO 1250 of the same subject (also showing the same bulb in the frame) and it does not show any banding that I can detect.

 

I'll ask Leica about this on Monday.

 

I'm shooting a wedding in NJ next weekend with the M8 and a 5D. I'll let you know if I see anything to be concerned about. Overall, though, I've got to say that banding has not been much of an issue at all in the high ISO pictures I've made. How often do you plan to be working at ISO 2500 with the M8? I do go to 3200 on the 5D when I need to.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I started with AdobeRGB but now, I output directly into the M8 profile space. Same results.

 

BTW, if someone download my custom profile, be careful. It is not as good as it could be and seems to work well only around 2400K. If I have time, I'll try to build a few better ones and let you know.

 

And if you want to see another problem, here it is. We already saw it on some previously posted DNG but if someone can tell me the best way to remove this banding or if this is something we can expect a futur firmware to solve, I'll be grateful.

 

Hi Pascal,

 

I'm just curious, is this a C1 conversion?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[jrgeoffrion]

Hi Pascal,

 

I'm just curious, is this a C1 conversion?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I think Pascal may be sleeping at the moment given that he's in Europe. The banding in his night shots (men on bench) appears in both C1 and ACR. This particular shot (posted before) is at 1250 ISO BTW.

[jrgeoffrion]

I'm shooting a wedding in NJ next weekend with the M8 and a 5D. I'll let you know if I see anything to be concerned about. Overall, though, I've got to say that banding has not been much of an issue at all in the high ISO pictures I've made. How often do you plan to be working at ISO 2500 with the M8? I do go to 3200 on the 5D when I need to.

 

Thanks. I don't go up to 2500 often given that the Leica lenses are star performers wide open -- however, I don't want to be limited in any way or jeopardize my clients' images.

[jrgeoffrion]

One last thing... Pascal's image of the men on the bench was taken with a Noc. I'd love to know if the vignetting correction was on - I'm going to assume not - but it may impact the blooming. Another common point between the two images is that the light source(s) is/are on the side of the image(s).

 

Edit: I don't have my M8 yet, but I took a look of the 'man in the cafe' raw files that were posted here a while ago and the banding is CLEARLY visible starting at 640ISO if one looks in the window.

 

Common factors are:

- 640 ISO+

- Light sources at the edges of the frame

- Leica Noc at f/1 (unless I don't remember the EXIF right)

[TSK]

JR, if you're talking about the "man in the cafe" posted by Roberto, it was a 35 cron asph as indicated by himself. His lens is not coded so the EXIF shows a focal length of 0.0mm.

 

TSK

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pascal_meheut]

Ok, a few things to answer questions:

 

- yes, C1 3.7.6 conversion with standard parameters. I use only Raw & C1, old DMR habit

- the lens was not a Noct but a 50mm Summicron wide-open. None of my lenses has 6 bit coding but I found no vignetting in practice

- I found some banding with other lenses, which is normal. But because of the picture, it was less visible so I posted this one

- as jrgeoffrion said, to have banding you need: 640 ISO or more, very bright, overexposed light source and an medium tone area near it. The banding over a dark sky is not noticeable

 

So far, I do not consider the problem I have important issues and I do not want to start any war or M8 bashing.

The M8 is an excellent camera and as someone pointed out, you need to get use to your new camera. I'm just pushing the enveloppe and reporting what I noticed so other can compare and we can learn to get the best out of it.

As I say often, it took me a while to get the best out of the DMR and the first week, I had better results with my cheap Canon 350D/Rebel XT. Problem was not the camera but the user and the version of Adobe Camera Raw & Flexcolor at the time.

 

I expect the same to be true of the M8 and the next time I'm in such a situation, I'll underexpose a bit for instance. There is no need for the "men on the bench" picture to have such a bright sky for instance and I suspect 1 f-stop less would reduce banding and still record enough detail to be properly post-processed.