rosuna Posted May 4, 2009 Share #61 Posted May 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Erwin Puts has written an interesting essay about innovation: Photography 3.0 | Personal | TAO of LEICA I think he is mostly right. The S2 makes sense for studio professional photographers, maybe for the next 10 years or more. The R system is a different thing. I think the changes will be faster in the amateur/semipro markets... evolution to mirror-less cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Hi rosuna, Take a look here New S2 competitor from Phase One. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stevesanacore Posted May 4, 2009 Share #62 Posted May 4, 2009 How does a pro system establish itself if no pro will buy it until it's established? Well what I do with new systems is to buy a body and one or two lenses, bring them on a shoot along with all my trusted gear which I use for the bulk of the work. I use the new system on shots that are most appropriate for it's qualities along side my normal gear. This also allows me to get into a new system slowly one lens at a time so the financial impact is minimal. I can remember doing this with my Mamiya 645 and then the Contax after that. Because we are talking about a digital camera, the results can be judged as soon as our images are processed later that day so there is no worry over going home with problems we weren't aware of almost instantly. On another note, I am just sorry Leica didn't first build a great 20MP R10 body....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 4, 2009 Share #63 Posted May 4, 2009 Guy talks about having a backup, and not having that with a Leica (because it's one unit), but do people really have backups for $20,000 or $30,000 backs? I assumed that if you owned a $30,000 back, that was it -- and if it broke, you got a replacement from the dealer or a rental. I don't see how that would be different with a Leica, really -- if it breaks, you get a replacement from a dealer or a rental unit. You *may* have a less good back that you could use with your body and lenses, but a Leica could be backed up with a less-good Canon or Nikon, and they could even have Leica (Canon) or Zeiss (Nikon) lenses. When you're shooting with a backup, you're shooting with a backup. JC Well either system one could have a Canon or Nikon backup. But that will not take you lenses and accessories from the MF system. Obviously there is talk of the R system taking the S lenses which is a plus. The real issue here is having to have a complete second system that don't match. Let's watch the numbers on backs because they can be had used or a smaller back for much less money than 30k. Backup body new is about 3500 hundred. So the MF solution today is a lot cheaper per say over the S2 as a backup. If your shooting a Phase P45 Plus for example you could easily have a P25 backup to it for 7k. Need to also remember with backs you have more choices in sensor. Phase and Hassy have about 4 or 5 different styles of backs and actually Phase has 7 in total of the modern backs. Folks talk about renting but rental houses have to look at costs also and if this system is very expensive they may not want to deal with it. They also need a whole system plus spares . Today with Hassy and Mamiya they all ready have scores of lenses and bodies in there inventory. How much do they want to lay out there and how much is there return . Plus how often can you rent this out to get your ROI back before the next gee wiz kid comes out on the streets. So looking at rental house is also a risk for them Look I really don't care who buys this thing and what there reasons maybe. I look at this as something to tear apart and figure out all the angles on it to see if it makes sense. I don't sell this stuff and have nothing to gain here but I do use this stuff daily and it just has to make sense to my art and my business and no most clients won't be giving you a nickel more for using it either. You can sell the technology to the clients as I have a very high resolution system so any media you can use it than this setup will handle anything you can throw at it. Seriously that is about as much as it can do to impress or sell a client. Leica ,Mamiya , Hassy all mean absolutely nothing to them. Cool toys are great and for the hobbyist and gear head like myself having Leica is really nice but the end of the day it is not making you money. You can sell the MF format to clients as a plus but not a brand. Seriously the S2 does fit my work as a high end DSLR style camera but all the stuff that makes it tick is just not proven yet and I won't risk this high end money on it yet . A M8 is and was a much lower risk as well as the DMR . The lenses have been out for years so it was a body risk and at 5k or so not in the same risk factor as 20k. Only reason I bring this up is the risk versus reward ratio tripled and now we are talking serious money here. For a business this is more a risk all situation than risk 25 percent. Just take the data and stop listening to all the stuff and make use of your common sense what works for you, we all have different needs and wants. I just look at this setup until it is well established in the market because it is a white sheet of paper and there is nowhere to turn if it don't work out. Today I don't like a back I can just get a different style which I just did actually. So for me I have some movement room around the system for whatever back makes the most sense for me. It's not all peaches and roses either, Phase can use a new body for there backs. So like life everything has some compromise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 4, 2009 Share #64 Posted May 4, 2009 Guy, the separate back thing is definitely a huge advantage, as it gives a lot more freedom. Only thing with the integrated approach of the S System is, that it is easier to build and control and produce real stellar quality, because there is no failure source between back and camera. And if you have found what you need in terms of MP, ISO etc, then maybe the S System is the better solution, if you do not need the total freedom of backs. Just thinking here mainly about what I should do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 4, 2009 Share #65 Posted May 4, 2009 The integrated system absolutely brings something to the table I agree. First off it brings a smaller package and maybe better form fitting like a DSLR. Weight though not sure , the S2 was pretty heavy but that is all debatable. Leica does not normally make light weight camera's. Not so sure about failure between back and camera. Really have not seen great evidence of this per say. I am sure some have been off but just going by my experience so far i have tried about a dozen different backs on my body and have not run into this issue. I agree though the chances are there and hell anything could happen. I would say more rare than normal though. I just don't see thread after thread reporting that issue. Not sure easier to build either and maybe from a engineering standpoint that could be true and maybe some cost savings in that. Obviously it is built at the same time so updates and such could happen even at production level timing. Also let's face it every Nikon and canon is also built like this but none of them cost 20k either. Just seems like a good discussion number for now. Weather proofing and such can happen easier as well, now cleaning sensors obviously the separate back wins the day. Certainly give and take on the choices. I see the 20k integrated as more a risk though overall. Not that stuff will happen it is the oh shits that makes me believe this if you know what I mean. The important thing is do a list of what pushes your buy button and what your turn offs are and compare that up and see what wins the day. Seriously though and i can bet money on this one, none of them will have a clear advantage and I mean clear advantage on a 30 x40 print. From the lonely 22MPX back to the 60 mpx back they will all score very high. And superior lenses will mean a lot less than people think in MF it is just not the case as it is in 35mm. I have seen it day in and day out cheap lenses actually produce great images and could never do that in 35mm world. Leica and Zeiss ruled the day in 35mm . Not so important in MF , good lenses will never hurt you but I have seen little 300 dollar lenses outdated by 15 years produce amazing images. MF you are really buying preferences of hardware and workflow with software. BTW there is no such thing as superior in photography, need to throw that word out of any discussion. That is just marketing spin. The issue I see is reality versus what is on a cloud. As buyers we need to be smarter than this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magd0328 Posted May 9, 2009 Share #66 Posted May 9, 2009 Judging by all we know about the S2 so far it will be a significantly superior product to Phase One's camera. It will be able to do everything the Phase One camera can do, but it will also be able to do most things a 35mm format camera can do as well. In a package little bigger than a D700. As I've said before on this forum, it could turn out to be one of the best photographic systems ever created. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesanacore Posted May 9, 2009 Share #67 Posted May 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Judging by all we know about the S2 so far it will be a significantly superior product to Phase One's camera. It will be able to do everything the Phase One camera can do, but it will also be able to do most things a 35mm format camera can do as well. In a package little bigger than a D700. As I've said before on this forum, it could turn out to be one of the best photographic systems ever created. That's all well and good, but I think what will make or break the success of the S2 is the price. I hate to keep harping on price but I am hoping Leica will not price themselves out of the market for professionals who have to justify the cost of any camera at some point. MF systems are falling in price monthly and I think they have a promising future because of it. Even business models based on prices 6 months ago would be obsolete now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted May 9, 2009 Share #68 Posted May 9, 2009 Leica would be smart to undercut the cost of their camera $1,000 for each lens they sell and then increase the prices of each lens by a grand and be done with it. They will have a much easier time selling expensive lenses than selling an expensive (+$13,000) body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted May 9, 2009 Share #69 Posted May 9, 2009 sorry but this is just a marketing hype. mechanical problems with the back-camera connection occur much more rarely than sensor misalignments, which happen in Dbacks and in integrated cameras. there is certainly a size advantage of the integrated sensor-body constructon but definitely not IQ. in any case, the issue is weight and not volume. i am curious about the presumed weight advantage of the S2+lens versus H3+lens or mamiya body +lens. i suspect there won't be any, given leica panzer design+material choices. but i agree, weather sealed is nice in MF. peter Guy, the separate back thing is definitely a huge advantage, as it gives a lot more freedom. Only thing with the integrated approach of the S System is, that it is easier to build and control and produce real stellar quality, because there is no failure source between back and camera. And if you have found what you need in terms of MP, ISO etc, then maybe the S System is the better solution, if you do not need the total freedom of backs. Just thinking here mainly about what I should do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 10, 2009 Share #70 Posted May 10, 2009 sorry but this is just a marketing hype. mechanical problems with the back-camera connection occur much more rarely than sensor misalignments, which happen in Dbacks and in integrated cameras. there is certainly a size advantage of the integrated sensor-body constructon but definitely not IQ. in any case, the issue is weight and not volume. i am curious about the presumed weight advantage of the S2+lens versus H3+lens or mamiya body +lens. i suspect there won't be any, given leica panzer design+material choices. but i agree, weather sealed is nice in MF.peter I personally do not really fear any digital back to body issues, all the systems and models I tried so far worked without any issues! I also tend to believe, that the weigh of the S2 will not be any better (lower) than a current MFDB plus camera plus lens. Maybe a slight size advantage, but if you compare with Phamiya als this will be pretty small. What advantage remains? Well IQ, if it really can be improved because of Leica standards. We will see, hard to tell in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted May 10, 2009 Share #71 Posted May 10, 2009 ... I also tend to believe, that the weigh of the S2 will not be any better (lower) than a current MFDB plus camera plus lens. Maybe a slight size advantage, but if you compare with Phamiya als this will be pretty small. What advantage remains? Well IQ, if it really can be improved because of Leica standards. Weather sealing and lens + focal plane shutters? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 10, 2009 Share #72 Posted May 10, 2009 Best way to describe the S2 to like a Hassy or Phase body is thinner, wider and taller. The MF bodies are more boxy because of the back but there not very tall and they are not very wide but fatter. Obviously more stuff has to go into the S2 and the MF bodies are only a camera. Some things you can't change like a Prism finder , Hassy you can , Mamiya you can't at least not on this current body. The S2 is more DSLR style and a different design than the traditional MF bodies. The lenses on the S2 are NOT small and just for reference if you every held a canon 85 1.2 in your hand like that as far as mass only longer. Hassy has fairly big lenses because of the shutter and Mamiya is fairly small but depends on the lens. Again the filter sizes on the S2 are 77mm and 87mm . If that gives any idea and there barrel shaped. Also that comparison photo floating around to a D700 I think is a bit misleading because of the angle it was shot and placement of the camera. Shots like that need to be at ground view and straight on to the products for better reference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted May 10, 2009 Share #73 Posted May 10, 2009 A completely neutral question: are the size and weight specifications of the S2 or any of its lenses published anywhere? I'm sure some would say these things are not so important--that "it's the ergonomics, stupid"--but it's something I look at when considering a lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 10, 2009 Share #74 Posted May 10, 2009 Not sure anything is published yet. I think at the end of the day though you put a bag together with 3 lenses of each system it most likely will weigh the same, maybe a little heavier on the S2 compared to Mamiya but not Hassy. My only point here pretty much is any lens with a leaf shutter inside will be big. Any Hassy H3 shooter will tell you that. Mamiya not having leaf lenses will be smaller and lighter there are exceptions my 28mm is a big lens and not the lightest ship floating. The 150 2.8 would be the next biggest but still smaller the the S2 glass in the same focal length . The thing weird here is the S2 lenses are made from the same barrel 77mm and also the 87mm filter size there just longer or shorter depending on the focal length. Given the way we all know Leica glass they simply don't make light lenses. All of the R glass and even the M glass for it's size is relatively heavy, not a bad thing but I would not expect light weight miracles here on the S2 glass. I held them and there not the lightest ship floating around. Something we are told never to say in public but here goes there just fat. LOL Also there 2.5 lenses as well and we all know faster glass means bigger Steve just on point I am as neutral as it comes ( no matter what some think or better yet imply). I don't care if Leica sells 6 million of these things or 2 of them. I also don't care if mamiya goes out of business tomorrow or anyone of them. What people fail to realize i get hundreds of gear questions all the time and my answers are always neutral and honest. I see major gaps in this system as well as in other systems including the one I own at any given time. My Mamiya system has a lot of holes in it and I always said what they are and I see holes in this S2 system. Just as I see them in Hassy. No one here is pointing out these holes but following all the marketing on it and just going down a path with blinders on. People should know the system holes and walls they will run into and how to get around them. My job or any Pro's job is to analyze a photo shoot and be a problem solver that is what we get hired to do is solve a issue. We have to figure out the gear you have on hand and find what tools or work around to get the shot or decide if you need to rent something special. There are several folks on this forum that is all we do is figure out ways to get something on that sensor to deliver to a client, names mean nothing but the tools that we may need to get it done is all we care about. People forget I like Leica stuff a lot. But I also have to get past what I like about it and see what I need to get a job done and Leica is not always the answer nor is any other name brand, it is about what a tool can and cannot do is what is important. You think it is fun for me to deal with Leica fanboys and I am even one of them. Hell there are people that hate me on this forum just for opening my mouth about anything on Leica . My only message is open your eyes before you drop 30 grand on any system. Now I am going to cook a nice breakfast for my wife and to all the Mom's out there , Happy Mothers day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 10, 2009 Share #75 Posted May 10, 2009 For me the lenses seem to be rather thick - at least from what I see from the photos. I own the 1.2/85 Canon, a great lens, but I would not like to use it as my day in day out lens. The Hassi lenses are quite big as well. For me the Mamiya lenses are small enough to be considered as no restriction to carry a body, back and lens around the whole day. I use to carry a camera on the grip with right hand and/or lens with left hand. This seems to be more possible and without any haasle if using the Phamiya Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted May 10, 2009 Share #76 Posted May 10, 2009 Oh, now it is the weight. Anything else you guys want to complain about??? :confused: GD Whalen Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 10, 2009 Share #77 Posted May 10, 2009 Oh, now it is the weight. Anything else you guys want to complain about??? :confused: GD Whalen Photography Can you read or not I complain not about the weight, but about the bulky lenses etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 10, 2009 Share #78 Posted May 10, 2009 Oh, now it is the weight. Anything else you guys want to complain about??? :confused: GD Whalen Photography Gary no one is complaining just telling you what the lenses are like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted May 10, 2009 Share #79 Posted May 10, 2009 A completely neutral question: are the size and weight specifications of the S2 or any of its lenses published anywhere? I'm sure some would say these things are not so important--that "it's the ergonomics, stupid"--but it's something I look at when considering a lens. The S2 body is 1.2 kg. The H3DII and PhaseOne 645 are 1.8 kg. Canon 1DsIII is 1.4 kg. Nikon D3x is 1.3 kg. Not a huge deal, but the S lens filter sizes are actually E72 and E82. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 10, 2009 Share #80 Posted May 10, 2009 Thanks David for some reason I thought 77 . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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