New S2 competitor from Phase One

[stevesanacore]

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David,

 

this is very true. It takes a while to recognize what one really needs for very good and stellar IQ.

 

One of my objectives is to offer fine art prints with a size of up to 80"x60". What I have today is MF film scanned by Flextight X5 with highest resolution. And this gives me files comparable in MP with 40MP.

 

I first thought one can only print this till 40"x30" or so and actually if you ask a lot of printing and post processing specialists you get as many opinions as you ask for. The hard rule is obviously that you do absolutely no up res of your files. Over time I tried myself and I came to the conclusion, that I can easily upscale such 40MP files to print up to 80"x60" and you could not see any real quality issues. More o it seems to be possible in PS3 or other SW and no differences. And I am not even using special fractal SW or whatever i offered on the market, as this is just too much playing around for me!

 

But now comes the point: I also started to upres files from my M8 and these are 10MP as we all know. I cannot say that I am happy with upres of these files to achieve 80"x60" prints, but for a 40"x30 it is more than ok! I then started testing with my Canon 5D2 files - 21MP as we know. And yes, please do not argue about the quality of C and their glass compared to MF or even Leica, BUT I can print from thes files simply up to 60"x40" without any quality issue. And in some cases I think these files are en superior to fils from an MFDB, simply because the lenses are better in their relation to the sensor size compared to MF.

 

Conclusion for MP resolution - with 40MP and great glass I can do all my work I ned and will probably not want more MP. Maybe I would be happy to get more if available once and I think that the size of the S sensor is big enough to allow for 60MP or so with a future sensor technology, but as I said I can do my work with already 40MP very well!

 

The next argument - a serious argument - was that a MFDB one can also use on tech cameras. This is true and I am convinced (without trying myself) that one can achieve stellar results with such combinations just because of the quality of the lenses you get for tech cameras. But would I carry a tech camera plus tripod plus back plus several lenses for many hours or days through desert, mountain etc? Definitely NO! But these are the areas where I want to take my stellar landscape photos. So a tech camera and the flexibility argument of the separate MFDB is gone as well.

 

Left with the "rest" what I want and need - 40MP, compactness, high quality camera and glass, great SW I can use - there is one clear winner on paper - the S System. I say on paper, because the System does not really exist, so we have to see if it fits all these expectations in reality, but the promises are huge.

 

My classification or MF systems is like that after all the investigations I have behind me:

 

Hasselblad: great system, specially tailored for studio and fashion mainly because of leaf shutter only. I do somehow miss an open platform and SW is not really great as well.

 

Phase: the absolute best and most flexible system available today. Greatest choice in backs and flexibility, highest res available, will obviously stay the top from what I have heard and has the best SW (RAW converter) I know, although some other features of C1 suck. And is obviously the most compact and robust MF system available today.

 

Sinar, Leaf, Hy6 etc - great systems, great ideas, lot of question marks for the future, very heavy and bulky, low numbers of back they are selling, SW not really up to what I expect

 

S System: VERY promising in all aspects, not yet available though and thus a big general question mark.

 

Conclusion: if I need to buy today (which I do not need, as I still have to work through my film archive first) I would go for Phase and a P45+. If I can wait till the introduction of the S System and they do things right it could very well become the system I really prefer and go with over the next years.

 

Finally price: folks, while price is definitely a very important aspect I am also sure that one goes with the system he/she really likes and needs and does not look to price too much in these areas. If you spend in the area of 30k$ for a system without VAT then it is not sooo important if you finally pay 28k$ or 35k$ if the system really holds up to what you need and expect!

 

PS: BW all the discussions about Kodak versus Dalsa etc.... maybe many of you already knew, but I had o find out that Kodak bought Dalsa, so Dalsa is Kodak. I think Kodak keeps this separate somehow, just because of business reasons, otherwise they could call it Kodak and just have a separate sensor line in their product offering. So who has the best Sensors? KODAK at the end of the day - I am sorry!

 

I agree with your findings on largre printing as I have been making 40x60s for a few years now from scanned chromes and all my Nikon and Canon cameras. But I do see limitations depending on which optics I use. I know you didn't want to talk about Canon vs Leica lenses but that is exactly my point here.

 

Let's say in a year or two Canon introduces a 40MP sensor in their flagship body. If I take my Leica R lenses and use it on that camera - how will it compare to the S2 images? I think that is an important question for Leica to know the answer to if they want to sell S2s for very long.

 

I think Leica needs to keep in mind that if they want to compete in this business they need to keep evolving and not expect things to stand still for very long. I know very well that MP isn't everything, but it definitely sells cameras. Every time Canon or Nikon upgrade the sensors I am sure there is a huge customer base that will always upgrade. It's just good business.

 

Just my 2 cents, but I am probably their prime demographic because of my dedication to their R optics.

[carstenw]

Well for me the main thing holding me back from the Phase One is the Mamiya camera. I used one for many years and never liked feel of it. And - the new Hasselblad H1,2,3 etc I think is worse. So there is definitely room for the S2 in this market for me, but Leica need to get going and not make the M8 mistakes again i.e., too little too late. And they have to keep the prices down in Mamiya territory at least.

 

Really??? I can't think of a single reason why Leica should *have to* make a better system for less money. Really, that is totally unreasonable. Quality cost money, and the Leica will be more expensive than the Mamiya, which is the cheapest (not cheap), lowest quality (not low quality) MF solution on the market today. I think it is far more reasonable to hope that Leica will match price and quality, at least, compared to the Hasselblad H3DII-39, the nearest real competitor.

[carstenw]

Let's say in a year or two Canon introduces a 40MP sensor in their flagship body. If I take my Leica R lenses and use it on that camera - how will it compare to the S2 images? I think that is an important question for Leica to know the answer to if they want to sell S2s for very long.

 

No, not really, that is almost entirely irrelevant. The market for Leica lenses on Canon cameras is surely of high quality, but it is a miniscule market served almost entirely by the alternative forum on fredmiranda.com. The relevant question is how will Leica optics on Leica cameras perform compared to Canon optics on Canon cameras, and I think we all know the answer to this. The Leica quality and results will generally be visibly better (there are a few exceptional lenses in the Canon lineup, so I don't want to say always), but the price will be higher, and the feature set will be more spartan.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

This is a very important point!

 

If I think how much time it took me to come to the conclusions I can draw today, no Pro would ever have the time to spend this.

 

And no Pro would spend the time and risk in buying a system that is not completely reliable and a complete system on the market and has established itself. Been there done that and will NEVER do that again( Lesson learned). We also need a back and that is a second one and no one is going to take these risks at these costs, nor are most rental houses which are fully stocked already with other gear loaded on there shelfs. This is still paper folks for me until it is out for some time to prove itself. All the talk means nothing unless it has 100 percent support in every area which NONE of that is out to date since it is not out. On top of all that something will come along and may just kill it in its tracks. That could come from anywhere from the 35mm OEM's or even from the existing MF families. Lead time can be very risky and Leica is taking a big chance here.

[stunsworth]

And no Pro would spend the time and risk in buying a system that is not completely reliable and a complete system on the market and has established itself.

 

How does a pro system establish itself if no pro will buy it until it's established?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

It's completely new so it has no background. You buy a Nikon D3X for example the lenses and systems accessories have been out and in use and there repair records are known and service times are known. The only risk you are taking is the Body itself and if it does not work Nikon has 4 other camera that can take that mount so the risk is far less than a completely clean sheet of paper system like the S2 is. On this system Pro's will have to wait it out as the hobbyist become the guinea pigs, there really is no other option. There is no backup body to take any of the lenses or system parts. Repairs and service times have not been known and if you buy it most likely you may have sold a lot to get it. Your still going to have to have a Nikon or canon at least small setup to cover yourself. In MF this is different since all the parts are separate but lenses and service and repairs are already known for the system and if a body fails there are backups very cheap , if a back don't work there are 4 or 5 different backs you can slap on the body. There is just much less risk and more choices between backs and bodies to get you through and service and repair times plus most MF systems have overnight loaners. We still don't know anything official yet on what Leica is going to do except what leica dealers think or what is assumed at this point. The only true backup is another S2 at say 20k for example . So the integrated systems like this have a big downside which still no one wants to fully address. You have a 20 thousand dollar paper weight and the backup is exactly the same. That's risky. At worst case a body goes down on a MF system a new body is 3k or even have a option for a very old body for 500 dollars which I actually have . I can actually go buy a cheap back for 4 or 5k or get a loaner overnight. So the options are very much less expensive .

These are serious considerations that have to come into play when buying a brand new white sheet of paper. It has no background except the company name itself which we all know Leica is a great name and that is not the real problem. The issue is the hardware itself and it needs to be established for awhile before those risks can be taken.

 

The hobbyist can take these risks and they don't understand having your neck on the line or more likely don't have to worry about it. It maybe a awesome system but it is still a maybe and it is just that simple.

 

But Steve i am sure you could have figured out that complete response . Just looking for a little horse play:D Not interested.

 

Your veil of inquiring innocence, has got a hole in it.

[sdai]

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I have 2 questions, one for amateurs and another for professionals who earn a living from taking pictures.

 

1. The question for amateurs first:

 

If you really have $50000 on hand, RIGHT NOW ... will you blow it on a camera and a couple of lenses?

 

2. The "professional" one:

 

If what you have now is sufficient to handle your work, why would you spend $50000 to switch system if it doesn't give you an edge against your competitors?

 

One more question for the pros:

 

Have you ever met anyone who can charge a premium just because his/her picture is taken with a Leica? Have you met a client who can see the differences and tell from the prints that it is taken with a Leica?

 

I know some people who take money as windfalls but they probably aren't interested in taking pictures at all, especially when they are "healthy".

[delander †]

As an amateur, I would not spend $50000, but might spend $15000 to $20000.

 

I am already into the M8 and lenses, also a Canon 1ds3 and lenses and the latter camera does telephoto, macro and action photography. Not sure where the S2 would fit into my scheme of things as it does not do all of what can be done with the 1ds3.

 

I would probably have to give up the 1ds3 as I cant see myself being able to keep all three systems going.

 

Jeff

[sdai]

How does a pro system establish itself if no pro will buy it until it's established?

 

That's the job of forum members. LOL

 

How many issues with the M8 were worked out by "pros"? most of them were figured out by people on this board.

[R10dreamer]

I still remember my first thought when I bought my first DSLR camera. Wow, I'm going to save a lot of money on my film costs. :rolleyes:

 

 

http://www.garydwhalen.com

[wildlightphoto]

... We still don't know anything official yet on what Leica is going to do except what leica dealers think or what is assumed at this point.....

 

Perhaps the system could be initially leased to rental houses? I'm just thinking out loud about the market penetration and acceptance problem. For a totally new system there's much less risk to the user to rent for a few days vs. an outright purchase.

[Gentleman Villain]

How does a pro system establish itself if no pro will buy it until it's established?

 

That's why the photographers at the top of the totem pole often get their equipment for free and are endorsed by manufacturers

 

Photographers....just like everybody else in life... are mostly followers and not leaders.... It should only take a few high profile celebrity photographers (like maybe A Leibovitz) to adopt an S2 system in order to create a buzz.

[dfarkas]

Here is a the description of service from the s.leica-camera.com S2 micro-site:

 

EXCLUSIVE SERVICE FOR PROFESSIONALS.

 

The Leica S System, the high-end digital single lens reflex camera system in Leica Pro Format, is specifically designed with the needs of professional photographers in mind. This embraces not only a camera concept that fits seamlessly into the professional digital workflow, but also applies to a range of exclusive services that concentrates on the support of professional photographers. Our aim is to provide photographers with support that is precisely tailored to match their needs. In collaboration with established and respected professional dealers, our future trading partners, we will offer a service and support concept that provides the greatest possible security and support for photographers working with the Leica S2. The concept includes integrated standard features such as a pool with replacement cameras and a leasing programme, as well as expert local contacts.

 

Not sure that I can really say anything specific at this point, but there have been extensive discussions between Leica and future S2 dealers (like me) about the service and support of the S2 with regards to hot-swaps, loaners, and rental units. I'm pretty confident that even the most demanding pros will feel comfortable and secure with the resulting support structure.

 

I can't speak for other dealers, but I'm sure that we will be adding the S2 to our Test Drive program that allows potential purchasers to try before they buy. Pros could also use the program to rent a backup for a particular job.

 

David

[Gentleman Villain]

Wow that's awesome

 

Thanks for posting, David

[sdai]

It should only take a few high profile celebrity photographers (like maybe A Leibovitz) to adopt an S2 system in order to create a buzz.

 

Anne Leibovitz is not loyal to any camera brand, she said this in her own book "At Work" ... associate her name to a given brand would be a snap in her own face.

 

It is my impression that these highest profile professionals often hate their names being used, that would create the illusion that their works are great only because of the gears they use.

[jrc]

Guy talks about having a backup, and not having that with a Leica (because it's one unit), but do people really have backups for $20,000 or $30,000 backs?

 

I assumed that if you owned a $30,000 back, that was it -- and if it broke, you got a replacement from the dealer or a rental. I don't see how that would be different with a Leica, really -- if it breaks, you get a replacement from a dealer or a rental unit. You *may* have a less good back that you could use with your body and lenses, but a Leica could be backed up with a less-good Canon or Nikon, and they could even have Leica (Canon) or Zeiss (Nikon) lenses. When you're shooting with a backup, you're shooting with a backup.

 

JC

[ptomsu]

Really??? I can't think of a single reason why Leica should *have to* make a better system for less money. Really, that is totally unreasonable. Quality cost money, and the Leica will be more expensive than the Mamiya, which is the cheapest (not cheap), lowest quality (not low quality) MF solution on the market today. I think it is far more reasonable to hope that Leica will match price and quality, at least, compared to the Hasselblad H3DII-39, the nearest real competitor.

 

I need to argue on this: do you really think that Hasselblad is superior in quality compared to the Mamiya? Did you ever touch and use these systems? If so then you have totally different way to feel a product!

 

For me - after doing only a little bit of testing with both systems the Mamiya system feels and operates much better.

[ptomsu]

In general I have to agree very much with Guy as well with David!

 

We have to see how the Leica support really is, but we also have to accept that Leica is trying to go a totally different way with the S System.

 

My take - if they do this one right, then the S System is very appealing

[Gentleman Villain]

Anne Leibovitz is not loyal to any camera brand, she said this in her own book "At Work" ... associate her name to a given brand would be a snap in her own face.

 

It is my impression that these highest profile professionals often hate their names being used, that would create the illusion that their works are great only because of the gears they use.

 

I understand that the artists don't often want to have their names connected too heavily with gear and would like the option of changing systems at whim...HOwever...the names of high profile photographers definitely sell gear

 

I can't tell you how many people bought Mamiyas back in the film days because of Leibovitz.. Back then it was popular to argue people that Hasselblad systems had the sharpest lenses but the Mamiya shooters would always say "if Mamiya is good enough for Leibovitz then it's good enough for me." Photographers are followers. It might also be possible to credit her with selling lots softlighters and Elinchrom Octabanks.

 

I chose her as an example because she's high profile and familiar with the public...But she's not the only person that can sell equipment with a name association. THe point of my post is that it will only take a few high profile early adapters to an S2 system to really get put the idea of a Leica MF in the minds of studio photographers .Right now....they still think of Leica as a camera for reporters and dentists.

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[rosuna]

Canon is distributing "beta" units of their new "pro" cameras right now. It is likely a presentation in August.

But that doesn't affect the S2 camera. The size of the format affects the image. It is not a question of megapixels. On the other hand, an integrated body will allow Leica to keep tolerance margins under control.

I am sure the S2 will be a great product, and I hope it will find a market. I think it will.The problem is the M system (the M8 needs an update of the electronic components, even if the sensor size remains the same) and the R system (how to redesign an entire system placing it in the actual market... ).