ger1g0 Posted April 7, 2009 Share #1 Posted April 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hey all My M7 seem to suddenly have this problem. I have had the camera for about 6 months now and until about 1 month ago, it has been performing flawlessly. I bought this camera has a demo unit together with a 35mm Summi. I have since added a 50mm Elmar and also a 21mm Voight. I have been getting amazing images up to this point that almost don't require much manipulation. Suddenly within the past month, I have not been able to get any good high contrast images from the camera? Everything seems really dull and low contrast, not just to 1 or 2 images. The entire roll or 3 looks exactly like that. Does not matter on the lens I use or the conditions I shoot. Everything ranging from bright days with full sun to shaded areas, the histogram is always bunched together in the middle. I usually use 400 Kodak CN B&W film and have not had problems until now. I set the camera on auto iso and when the camera is turned on, it says 400 in the viewfinder, which I would assume that it is reading the canister right. But I have a sneaking suspicion that somehow the film is being underexposed? Thoughts? PS picture of building is when the camera is almost new and the grey one is something that I took this weekend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 7, 2009 Posted April 7, 2009 Hi ger1g0, Take a look here Low contrast image problem. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dpattinson Posted April 7, 2009 Share #2 Posted April 7, 2009 So you should be able to check if it's underexposure due to wrong shutter speed by using sunny f16 rule. go outside on a clear day, and check that the shutter-speed indicated is roughly 1/ISO (in your case 1/400) when the aperture is set to f16 Otherwise it could be that the camera is firing a higher shutter speed than indicated, which apparently might be a symptom of low battery power. So try changing the batteries. Thirdly, it could be the scan - take a look at the negatives. If they are all 'thin' (no deep black areas) then it's underexposure in the camera (or possibly a problem with your film processing). If the negatives look the same as your older ones - then it's your scanner. In general, scanning at lower contrast and adjusting in PS seems to be a better approach anyway. Have you tried applying curves in PS and see if the result has the detail you want when you get the contrast you expect? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted April 7, 2009 Share #3 Posted April 7, 2009 But I have a sneaking suspicion that somehow the film is being underexposed? That would be my suspicion, too. Followed by another suspicion, namely that the batteries are low (even if that is not being indicated yet). Try using a fresh set of batteries. The M7 shutter doesn't like batteries which are nearly empty, it tends to underexpose then. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ger1g0 Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted April 7, 2009 aha... I have been trying to squeeze the last few drops of power from the almost exhausted batteries because I get the "BC" warning very frequently. But I have since replaced the batteries so it should have a marked improvement. I don't scan my own film so it might be the lab. But I have gotten this result from 2 labs in 2 different continents so I would assume it is my camera. Could it also be the film? I have been traveling with this film stock for quite some time now and I was told that the xray they used for checked baggage is very aggresive. Could that be a factor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted April 7, 2009 Share #5 Posted April 7, 2009 Never, ever put film in checked in baggage. Always carry the film with you. The x-rays they use on checked in baggage are much stronger than those used for hand baggage. Hand baggage x-rays do not harm film. (Don't tell me you put your camera in the hold as well...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted April 7, 2009 Share #6 Posted April 7, 2009 aha... I have been trying to squeeze the last few drops of power from the almost exhausted batteries because I get the "BC" warning very frequently. But I have since replaced the batteries so it should have a marked improvement. I don't scan my own film so it might be the lab. But I have gotten this result from 2 labs in 2 different continents so I would assume it is my camera. Could it also be the film? I have been traveling with this film stock for quite some time now and I was told that the xray they used for checked baggage is very aggresive. Could that be a factor? Could be the film, fogged film should end up with lower contrast. But that is easy to check by buying a new roll. Could still be the lab, if the original ones were from a lab that scanned high contrast... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted April 7, 2009 Share #7 Posted April 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have been traveling with this film stock for quite some time now and I was told that the xray they used for checked baggage is very aggresive. Could that be a factor? Now if I would have known that before, I would not even have thought of anything else. NEVER EVER put film in the checked baggage. Throw away all unused film that went in the checked baggage. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted April 7, 2009 Share #8 Posted April 7, 2009 Out of interest does it make any difference whether you shoot auto mode or manual? M7 also has two default mechanical modes, might help to do some test shots with a hand held meter for aperture at the default manual shutter speeds (60th, 125th?) with the camera turned off or battery out, then again using the manual mode with the camera switched on so presumably the shutter is controlled by the electronic side, then again at that aperture in aperture priority to see what happens. Can the M7 brigade advise whether the shutter speed of 60th, 125th with the camera on is controlled electronically as apposed to 60th, 125th with the camera off? Id be running c41 colour through and taking it to another lab just to start ruling out development. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ger1g0 Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share #9 Posted April 7, 2009 Is that what foggy film looks like? Grey and low contrast? I will also use the methods that you guys have suggested to see whether it is the problem with the camera. Thanks very much for all the great responses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted April 7, 2009 Share #10 Posted April 7, 2009 X ray fogged film will have fog ( density) in the unexposed areas. All examples of baggage scanned film that was damaged has lines, not overall fog. Repeated passes through a carry on scanner will fog any film as damage is cumulative. Do not believe what airlines tell you. They do NOT have special x-rays. They are generic like water. Your second sample appears to be on an overcast day and shows no shadows. A generic scan will just place this low contrast scene in the middle of the histogram. Photoshop can easily perk this up. Use levels or curves. Underdevelopment will show the frame numbers and film ID as pale compared to original rolls. Do a comparison. See what the meter read out is in bright sun on a middle grey subject. Light subjects will underexpose with a reflected meter ( or in camera meter) and dark ones overexpose. You need to recognise these conditions and compensate. An incident meter is much closer all the time. Photos in overcast conditions will always appear low in contrast, but probably not as low as your sample. Darkroom and scanning is usually best done by yourself as only you know how the photo is supposed to look. If the camera is consuming batteries, there is a camera problem or you are getting old stock batteries that have self discharged before you bought them. The 1/3 n cells have a longer shelf life than the smaller silveroxide which store more energy. Take your pick. Also clean silver cells on a soft cloth. In any case, worrying about getting the last drop out of a Leica battery is like buying a Ferrari and then worring how much gas it burns. A flash picture is a better sample to use to check for contrast or go back and repea the same subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted April 7, 2009 Share #11 Posted April 7, 2009 Can the M7 brigade advise whether the shutter speed of 60th, 125th with the camera on is controlled electronically as apposed to 60th, 125th with the camera off? Depends on whether you select 60th or 125th in manual mode or auto. In manual mode, even if the camera runs on batteries, those times will be controlled manually. In auto mode, they are electronically controlled. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 7, 2009 Share #12 Posted April 7, 2009 Repeated passes through a carry on scanner will fog any film as damage is cumulative Indeed it is, but the question is how many passes does it take before the eddect is noticable? I've taken film on a trip and had 10 or more scans of carry on luggage without noticing any probems. An X-ray may be like water, but there's a difference between a torrent and a drip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ger1g0 Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted April 7, 2009 Tobey, thanks for the thoughts. I processed 3 rolls at this new (to me) lab in Shanghai since I moved to the city recently. All 3 rolls almost have the same look in that everything is very gray with no strong highlights and shadows. It's true that the day was overcast, but I have not had that problem in the past shooting in similar conditions with the M7. Unfortunately, most all the images are not rescue-able in post processing because there is a great a amount of noise in the shadows. I have had the same results in images when they are not sufficiently exposed in other cameras as well as the M7. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted April 7, 2009 Share #14 Posted April 7, 2009 Tobey, thanks for the thoughts. I processed 3 rolls at this new (to me) lab in Shanghai since I moved to the city recently. All 3 rolls almost have the same look in that everything is very gray with no strong highlights and shadows. It's true that the day was overcast, but I have not had that problem in the past shooting in similar conditions with the M7. Unfortunately, most all the images are not rescue-able in post processing because there is a great a amount of noise in the shadows. I have had the same results in images when they are not sufficiently exposed in other cameras as well as the M7. So you've compared the negatives and the new 'low contrast' ones are thinner looking than the old 'high contrast' ones? Just trying to be sure it's not the scan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted April 7, 2009 Share #15 Posted April 7, 2009 Depends on whether you select 60th or 125th in manual mode or auto. In manual mode, even if the camera runs on batteries, those times will be controlled manually. In auto mode, they are electronically controlled. Andy I take it that all other shutter times when you are in manual mode are electronically controlled. I wasnt sure whether 60th&120th were also electronically controlled in manual, and only defaulting to the mechanical in the absence of power. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
35photo Posted April 7, 2009 Share #16 Posted April 7, 2009 Well, I did a levels adjust in photoshop to your image, and its greatly improved.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted April 7, 2009 Share #17 Posted April 7, 2009 I processed 3 rolls at this new (to me) lab in Shanghai since I moved to the city recently. All 3 rolls almost have the same look in that everything is very gray with no strong highlights and shadows. So you've had this problem on 3 rolls processed by this lab but not on previous rolls processed by other labs? Could this be a clue, Holmes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.M Posted April 7, 2009 Share #18 Posted April 7, 2009 it doesn't have anything to do with your problem, but I expose a kodak t400cn at 200 iso. Better contrast and finer grain, just my opinion. Etienne Michiels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ger1g0 Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted April 8, 2009 Giordano, actually what I said was that the film developed in the past month has been like that, irrespective of whether it was developed in San Francisco or Shanghai. So we think that it is either because I was trying to skimp on low batteries or that the film has been passed one too many times through the X-ray machine at the airport. I have been traveling a lot in the past 3-4 months and was afraid that I would run out of film. So I bought a big batch but thought nothing of throwing them into the checked in luggage. 35 Photo, I actually do a lot of post processing with most all of my images, as I am very familiar with Lightroom and photoshop. I guess what I am referring to is not that the photos are lifeless, which is not a problem and easily fixed in post processing. It has tremendous noise in the shadows that indicate that the exposure was not right in the camera. When the images are post processed, they have to be seriously Noise Ninja-ed. That is not ideal and I know that the camera is capable of nailing exposures beautifully. If the images are not scanned right, they would just be lifeless, but not have a lot of noise. Etienne, what type of instructions do you give the lab when you bring your film in? I tried to ask the lab and they said that they no longer push film on C41. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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