Yet another dumb lens question...M8 basics

[Jamie Roberts]

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Ok, so I'm definitely getting this thing, and I'm wondering how sane my lens choices are for those of who know this system better than I do. Here are my thoughts...

 

I'm an available light event / wedding shooter. I have an R9/ DMR for studio / slower portrait work and a 5d (the 1ds2 is now sold!) for AF and backup.

 

Since I have R lenses aplenty, I want to use them where it makes sense (less to carry too).

 

The M8 will be the primary stealth camera, for mostly PJ type shots.

 

I like to shoot as wide open as possible for the circumstances.

 

I'm thinking:

 

19 R (with an adapter and set to hyperfocal)

28 Elmarit 2.8 (The new one)

35 Lux ASPH

50 Noctilux

80 Summilux R with an adapter when absolutely necessary (probably can't frame this very easily, though).

 

All comments are appreciated! Thanks in advance.

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[jrgeoffrion]

Ok, so I'm definitely getting this thing, and I'm wondering how sane my lens choices are for those of who know this system better than I do. Here are my thoughts...

 

I'm an available light event / wedding shooter. I have an R9/ DMR for studio / slower portrait work and a 5d (the 1ds2 is now sold!) for AF and backup.

 

Since I have R lenses aplenty, I want to use them where it makes sense (less to carry too).

 

The M8 will be the primary stealth camera, for mostly PJ type shots.

 

I like to shoot as wide open as possible for the circumstances.

 

I'm thinking:

 

19 R (with an adapter and set to hyperfocal)

28 Elmarit 2.8 (The new one)

35 Lux ASPH

50 Noctilux

80 Summilux R with an adapter when absolutely necessary (probably can't frame this very easily, though).

 

All comments are appreciated! Thanks in advance.

 

If I understand correctly, you have a few R lenses but no M and would like to "add" some M lenses to complete the "kit". This "kit" would include using a few R lenses via an adapter.

 

My thoughts, depending on where you see your "kit" going down the road with a new R body is to "focus" (no pun intended) on the M for wides while the R for longer glass. The problem could be "backup" if you can't cover the event if one of the two can't function for a reason or another.

 

You could probably get a Zeiss 21mm to "replace" the 19mm R (or keep it and leave it at home, your lower back with thank you). It's below US$1k new and much lighter. I find the wides (15-35mm) hard to focus in dark wedding venues with the DMR so I would favor your choice of fast wide M lenses such as the 35 'lux. The Noc is rather large and nice. You should also consider the 50 'lux which is more manageable.

[ho_co]

Jamie--

I'm a big fan of the M system and would have a hard time making myself give up its rangefinder; ergo I probably wouldn't make the choice you're making. On the other hand, I have more M than R lenses, so my choice would be different anyway.

 

19 R (with an adapter and set to hyperfocal)

Good reasoning. I'd also add "and/or guess focus."

 

28 Elmarit 2.8 (The new one)

35 Lux ASPH

Both look good; 35/1.4 known to be an excellent lens; you might want to consider the 28/2 instead since you're thinking of available light, but you've got that covered on other fronts.

 

50 Noctilux

Great lens, but big & heavy. I'd probably go for the 50 Summilux ASPH instead.

 

80 Summilux R with an adapter when absolutely necessary (probably can't frame this very easily, though).

I'd rule this one out: Can't frame and can't focus. I'd consider the 75 Summicron or the 75 Summilux instead. Caveat: I've got the 75 Summilux and like it very much, but like the Noctilux, it is big and heavy. I carry it for speed, close focus and magnification; but I need to think twice about taking it because of weight.

 

You said 'stealth outfit.' The Noctilux is big and the 80 Summilux will likely disappoint because of focus and framing (even though you said, "when absolutely necessary"). To my way of thinking, these two preclude 'stealth.'

 

I recommend that before ordering, you get your hands on the Noctilux and 75 Summilux and see whether they'll fit your needs physically.

 

Just my comments.

 

--HC

[marknorton]

The Nocti is an interesting lens but....

 

- it's big and heavy - it weighs more than the camera does

- it's slow to use - the length of the focussing scale is 3 - 4 times that of the 50mm Summilux ASPH

 

I don't think it should be your first or only 50.

 

If I was buying 3 lenses, I'd have 24/2.8, 35/1.4 and 75/2. I don't know how you would get on with focussing and framing both the 19 and 80.

[Jamie Roberts]

Thanks to everyone who replied--this is exactly the information I'm looking for!

 

JR--yes, focusing quickly in dark wedding venues, especially the wides, is really very tricky with the DMR. Many's the time I've resorted to reading the focus ring scale (thought I use a Brightscreen focus screen now which helps a lot, but it's still tricky)...

 

So, judging by the comments here, I should leave the R lenses on the DMR (and forget about the adaptors) and go with something like:

 

21 Zeiss M (for economy)

28 Elmarit 2.8

35 Lux

50 Lux

70 Cron

 

I know there was a recommendation for the 24 in there, but I'm thinking the new 28 is going to be pretty good as a "35" lens...

 

So the follow-on questions:

 

--Any pointers to reviews on that Zeiss 21?

--Are the 35 / 50 lux lenses still reasonably "stealthy?"

-- How is the 70 Cron compared with the 70 Lux? Will it still be reasonably easy to focus with the M8?

[jrgeoffrion]

Thanks to everyone who replied--this is exactly the information I'm looking for!

 

JR--yes, focusing quickly in dark wedding venues, especially the wides, is really very tricky with the DMR. Many's the time I've resorted to reading the focus ring scale (thought I use a Brightscreen focus screen now which helps a lot, but it's still tricky)...

 

So, judging by the comments here, I should leave the R lenses on the DMR (and forget about the adaptors) and go with something like:

 

21 Zeiss M (for economy)

28 Elmarit 2.8

35 Lux

50 Lux

70 Cron

 

I know there was a recommendation for the 24 in there, but I'm thinking the new 28 is going to be pretty good as a "35" lens...

 

So the follow-on questions:

 

--Any pointers to reviews on that Zeiss 21?

--Are the 35 / 50 lux lenses still reasonably "stealthy?"

-- How is the 70 Cron compared with the 70 Lux? Will it still be reasonably easy to focus with the M8?

 

Yup. However, if you are bringing both the DMR and M8, you may save a little by keeping the DMR for the 50mm+ focal length, which means that you can drop the 70 from the line-up.

 

As for the 21mm Zeiss, it's equal or better than the 21mm ASPH -- which is saying a lot.

 

You should look at third party 28mm options also.

 

The 35 'lux is relatively small. You could technically go with the 35mm 'cron ASPH which is smaller if you can do with f/2 (since you should be able to hold the shutter speed a little lower than with the DMR since the mirror won't create vibrations).

 

The 75 lux is basically the same as the 80 lux (albeit a bit smaller). The APO on the other hand, is a derivative of the 50 'lux ASPH.

 

Because of the small viewfinder mag, you may need the 1.25x magnifier for the 75 and 90 if you shoot wide open -- really depends on you.

[sean_reid]

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Thanks to everyone who replied--this is exactly the information I'm looking for!

 

JR--yes, focusing quickly in dark wedding venues, especially the wides, is really very tricky with the DMR. Many's the time I've resorted to reading the focus ring scale (thought I use a Brightscreen focus screen now which helps a lot, but it's still tricky)...

 

So, judging by the comments here, I should leave the R lenses on the DMR (and forget about the adaptors) and go with something like:

 

21 Zeiss M (for economy)

28 Elmarit 2.8

35 Lux

50 Lux

70 Cron

 

I know there was a recommendation for the 24 in there, but I'm thinking the new 28 is going to be pretty good as a "35" lens...

 

So the follow-on questions:

 

--Any pointers to reviews on that Zeiss 21?

--Are the 35 / 50 lux lenses still reasonably "stealthy?"

-- How is the 70 Cron compared with the 70 Lux? Will it still be reasonably easy to focus with the M8?

 

The lens list (assume you meant 75) looks good. I'd prefer a 24 to a 21 but that's up to you. I reviewed the Zeiss 21 on RR - great lens. Don't know what you mean by stealthy in this case but everyone should own that 35 and that 50 if his or her wallet allows. <G> They're essential lenses for low light work. Less expensive alternative to 50/1.4 is the Nokton 50/1.5 which is also a superb lens. There is no real alternative (in my mind) to that 35/1.4 Asph. unless one is willing to lose a stop. CV 35/1.2 is much larger, heavier and ultimately does not perform as well as the Leica.

 

I've mentioned this before but people who are new to rangefinders may soon discover why the 24 works better than the 21 for fast work wide open on the M8. One can't frame the subject and focus simultaneously with the latter. The M8 finder does not show a good approximate view for the 21.

 

My recommended list, if money is no object:

 

Leica 24/2.8

CV 28/1.9 (or Leica 28/2.8 if one can spare the stop, or Leica 28/2.0)

Leica 35/1.4 Asph

Leica 50/1.4 Asph

 

Worthy alternatives to save some $$

 

Zeiss 25/2.8 with bayonet from ZM 35

CV Nokton 50/1.5

 

The 21 is fine so long as one can either zone focus stopped down or has time to focus then frame then re-focus, etc. Having a 28 finder in the M8 shoe either blocks the flash access *or* a Wein or the like must be used for a flash connection and that puts the 28 finder too high for good framing accuracy. In short, wider than 24 with flash on the M8 is a PITA until/unless someone comes out with an ultra low-profile adapter to provide flash connection while keeping the finder close to the camera body where it belongs.

 

I say this having shot with two R-D1s at weddings for the past couple of years. The fact that the M8 can get us to a 32 mm EFOV *in the finder* is a huge advantage over the R-D1 when using flash at a reception. Epson can only get as wide as 42 mm EFOV before the finder and flash cord connector are fighting for the hot shoe. 42 isn't wide enough for me at a reception so I'm usually back to the 5D for that flash work. Now, with the M8 at 32 I may be able to stick with an RF for flash during the dancing, etc. I tend to work very close for that stuff.

 

A 28 on the M8 really does feel like a 35 so I agree with that thought.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[waterlenz]

 

Zeiss 25/2.8 with bayonet from ZM 35

n

 

Indeed! They are exchangeable?

[sean_reid]

Indeed! They are exchangeable?

 

I believe so and my Zeiss contact believes so. I've got to locate the right screwdriver to swap them so that I can confirm. If so, this is great news. I have a jewelers screwdriver set here but the flat-head blades are just a touch too thick.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Jamie Roberts]

Wow. Thanks again to everyone here--particularly JR and Sean for those last posts.

 

Sean--I hear you on the 21 and the finder. I do need to keep the hotshoe unencumbered just in case.

 

So it looks like the lineup is going to be

 

24 Leica / modified Zeiss 25?

--what will happen on the camera with the Zeiss? Would the frame lines be OK?

 

28

--hmmm. Sean, I know you commented on how good the new Elmarit is, but do you have anything pithy on the new Elmarit vs the Summicron f2.0? How big is the f2.0 compared with the f2.8? What's your sense of the fingerprint differences?

 

35 Lux--now ordered

50 Lux--now ordered

 

and I'll save the longer lenses for the DMR, at least for awhile. My thinking is that ultimately, I'd like to entirely trade cameras for the reception...which means at some point I'll need to look at the 75 or the 90 and a magnifier.

 

JR--(or anyone else)--I use a magnifier on the DMR right now (my eyes aren't what they used to be), and though it's only a subtle difference from the already great viewfinder, every little bit helps!

 

Is it relatively easier to ensure focus on the M8 in low light "as is" or do people use magnification regularly anyway? Or is it only something needed for longer lengths?

[jrgeoffrion]

JR--(or anyone else)--I use a magnifier on the DMR right now (my eyes aren't what they used to be), and though it's only a subtle difference from the already great viewfinder, every little bit helps!

 

Is it relatively easier to ensure focus on the M8 in low light "as is" or do people use magnification regularly anyway? Or is it only something needed for longer lengths?

 

The RF base times the viewfinder mag is basically the limiting focus precision factor. Since the M8 mag is 0.68, using the 1.25x basically increases the focus precision by 25% making the viewfinder mag an effective 0.85x. On an RF, the magnifier is only used for longer focal length. Don't forget that with the magnifier, you may lose some of the frame lines... I doubt you would need it for the 75mm, but potentially for a 90mm. The downside is that you have to screw and unscrew it...

[sean_reid]

The RF base times the viewfinder mag is basically the limiting focus precision factor. Since the M8 mag is 0.68, using the 1.25x basically increases the focus precision by 25% making the viewfinder mag an effective 0.85x. On an RF, the magnifier is only used for longer focal length. Don't forget that with the magnifier, you may lose some of the frame lines... I doubt you would need it for the 75mm, but potentially for a 90mm. The downside is that you have to screw and unscrew it...

 

I found the 35 lines are the widest one can see with the magnifier mounted. In fact, that also ended up being what the manual said. I'd certainly recommend it for longer lenses esp.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[ho_co]

24 Leica / modified Zeiss 25?

--what will happen on the camera with the Zeiss? Would the frame lines be OK?

Jamie--

Sean said the Zeiss 25 currently keys the wrong M framelines. (After all, there was no 24 mm frame in the Leica until the M8, so Zeiss had nothing to base their bayonet on.)

 

So If you mount the Zeiss 25 as currently produced, it will work perfectly except that the framelines will be the wrong ones. You could hold the frame preview lever in the right position, but obviously that isn't a workable solution. That is the reason Sean is checking to see whether the lens bayonet can be changed so it will key the Leica 24 frame. I'm sure Zeiss is already working on changing the 25 mount to key the Leica 24/35 frame set.

 

Is it relatively easier to ensure focus on the M8 in low light "as is" or do people use magnification regularly anyway? Or is it only something needed for longer lengths?

Don't worry about the magnifier until you go to lenses longer than 50 mm. There is a great interest at the moment in the magnifier because it's something to buy while waiting for an M8 . But for wide-angles there is no need for it at all, and as Sean said, it can block some of the frame lines. Unlike a reflex, the M always shows the same finder (just different frame lines. It is very clear and bright and easy to focus. A reflex is much harder to focus until you get to medium to long focal lengths.

 

--HC

[wparsonsgisnet]

So it looks like the lineup is going to be

 

24 Leica / modified Zeiss 25?

--what will happen on the camera with the Zeiss? Would the frame lines be OK?

 

28

--hmmm. Sean, I know you commented on how good the new Elmarit is, but do you have anything pithy on the new Elmarit vs the Summicron f2.0? How big is the f2.0 compared with the f2.8? What's your sense of the fingerprint differences?

 

35 Lux--now ordered

50 Lux--now ordered

 

Jamie,

 

I cnnot stress this enough -- Make sure you get the asph version of the 35mm f1.4. I have used both the non-asph and the asph versions of the 35 lux and the 50 lux. The 35mm f1.4 non-asph is very flare prone and does NOT perform well with oncoming light sources (read: indoor). I have not found this to be a problem with the 50 lux non-asph that I had (others have complained abut the flare in this lens, too).

 

I now own the asph version of both the 35 lux and the 50 lux. I bot the 50 asph based on my experience with the 35, not because I was having flare problems. I ordered the 50 when it was announced (actually when it was rumored to be announced).

 

I have just purchased the 24mm f2.8 asph -- based on the images I saw in Sean Reid's review of the 24/25 Leica/Zeiss lenses. This is a special lens. Puts says it is the single most important lens for an M owner to have.

 

I also have the 35 lux asph

50 lux asph

50 f2.0 DR (a magic lens, as well)

75 f1.4

90 f2.0

 

Again, it's really important to have the asph version of the 35mm f1.4.

 

Good luck. We're ALL going to be posting amazing images on this site when the M8 arrives. I'm really looking forward to using the DR lens with the M8.

 

I think my everyday kit will be the 24, the 35, and the DR.

 

Regards,

[marknorton]

Interesting that the big 75 and 90 do not form part of your "normal" kit. I think the extra weight of the 75/1.4 and 90/2 would have proved a problem which is why I went for the 75/2 and 90/4.

[sean_reid]

Wow. Thanks again to everyone here--particularly JR and Sean for those last posts.

 

1. 24 Leica / modified Zeiss 25?

--what will happen on the camera with the Zeiss? Would the frame lines be OK?

 

2. 28

--hmmm. Sean, I know you commented on how good the new Elmarit is, but do you have anything pithy on the new Elmarit vs the Summicron f2.0? How big is the f2.0 compared with the f2.8? What's your sense of the fingerprint differences?

 

 

1. If the 35 bayonet swap works (I just need the right screwdriver which is hard to find) then the Zeiss 25 will pull up the 24 mm lines on the M8.

 

2. I'll be doing a comparison test of six 28s including both Leicas.

 

My enthusiastic comments on the 35/1.4 are based on the second aspherical version.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[grober]

Sean,

 

Please name a reliable source for the Zeiss 35 bayonet (so I can convert my 25mm Biogon.)

 

The Zeiss website is silent on this and the dealer from whom I purchased the Biogon is no longer authorized by Z.

 

Thanks!

 

-g

[grober]

Interesting that the big 75 and 90 do not form part of your "normal" kit. I think the extra weight of the 75/1.4 and 90/2 would have proved a problem which is why I went for the 75/2 and 90/4.

 

Mark,

 

Couldn't agree more. I sold both my heavy 75 'Lux and even my much-loved 90 APO-Summicron as soon as the 75mm Summicron was announced and M8 rumors started to firm up.

 

I differ from your selection only in that my Leica 90mm is now the compact 90mm Tele-Elmarit. (Of course, the 1.33 factor of the M8's sensor makes any 75 the preferred portrait format over our traditional favorite: any flavor of the 90mm Summicron.)

 

-g

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[Jamie Roberts]

Hey--thanks everyone!

 

Bill--I checked with my dealer and the 35 and 50 luxes are both the newest ASPH versions. Whew!

 

Sean--maybe I'll wait for your review of the 28s before I decide on the Elmarit or Summicron.