S2 and my impressions

[mooky]

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"The discussion is probably neither here not there from Leica's perspective. What matters is how the system performs, not how much hot air it generates on internet forums."

 

Agreed. I still think there is too much 'Glass half full' attitude here.

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[eronald]

That's exactly what was said about the DMR.

 

Good point. And it was pretty much true. A full-frame AF R10 was possible, with a Kodak sensor at the time. The DMR had good image quality going for it, but a full-frame design with at least some AF ability eg. focus confirm, would have had premier quality amongst SLRs and would have re-established Leica at the top of the heap. Such a FF camera wuld have survived a 6 year cycle, some pros still swear by the Kodak SLR/N.

 

The M8 was botched, again by sensor choice. It's time Leica realised they need to put a cutting edge sensor in their cameras. Today this means high DR and high ISO.

 

If you want to see the sort of thing that can be done with liveview, just look at the focus adjustment topic on my blog.

 

Edmund

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Good point. And it was pretty much true. A full-frame AF R10 was possible, with a Kodak sensor at the time. The DMR had good image quality going for it, but a full-frame design with at least some AF ability eg. focus confirm, would have had premier quality amongst SLRs and would have re-established Leica at the top of the heap. Such a FF camera wuld have survived a 6 year cycle, some pros still swear by the Kodak SLR/N.

 

The M8 was botched, again by sensor choice. It's time Leica realised they need to put a cutting edge sensor in their cameras. Today this means high DR and high ISO.

 

If you want to see the sort of thing that can be done with liveview, just look at the focus adjustment topic on my blog.

 

Edmund

 

Edmund the S2 sensor is not on the market. This is a new design than what exist today it is 6 micron not 6.8 like your P45 or P30. Also Leica will bin this sensor to a 9.3 for higher ISO. Now will it get to be a great 1600 we don't know that yet. I agree CCD and Kodak in the past getting a great 1600 is a wet dream. Let's see what happens here but I see your concern.

[eronald]

...... this only shows up some insecurities or issues you must have in life, but so be it.

 

 

I never made a judgement one way or the other about your buying the next best thing, I guess you see it as a issue. One thing despite the constant change in gear your photography is consistently the same over the years

 

So? Guy is a reputed technical photographer. Consistency in results is exactly what clients in that field demand. Doesn't mean Guy cannot find ways to work smarter.

 

I do agree that Guy could probably deliver the same quality with the equipment he owned a few years ago. But if he wants to change, because the new stuff makes his life easier or more fun, that's his choice. It has the advantage for now of bringing a competent pro to this board. Although I have a feeling that once a 17mm Canon TS/E finds his way into his hands he may get a new "camera wife".

 

Edmund

[hoppyman]

Hi there, are you thinking about the aesthetic characteristics of the camera and lenses? They don't look 'M' like to me that is true ;-). Of course that's completely unimportant for how well they will work. For me, the Leica 'magic' is there for all to see in the magnificent MTF diagrams that we have seen for the new lens designs! Just amazing optical design, it seems.

I think the S2 system looks a bit too much aseptic for a Leica camera and Leica lenses.

The lens design reminds me of Sony Zeiss lenses.

I furthermore think that I'm not alone with this impression as the discussion's tenor is more or less about mathematical perfect lens design, microns and µ's.

I wonder how a Leica lacking magical charisma will sell?

[eronald]

Edmund the S2 sensor is not on the market. This is a new design than what exist today it is 6 micron not 6.8 like your P45 or P30. Also Leica will bin this sensor to a 9.3 for higher ISO. Now will it get to be a great 1600 we don't know that yet. I agree CCD and Kodak in the past getting a great 1600 is a wet dream. Let's see what happens here but I see your concern.

 

Guy, I have had such difficulty in real world off-tripod use of the P45+ that I really don't want to go that route again. In fact, this week, I think I'll go and have the mount changed to Contax which will at least give me access to some faster glass and less mirror slap.

 

And you oughta try the Sony or Canon or Nikon of the latest gen, they each have some interesting abilities; my Nikon D3x has superb AF for instance and very good resolution, and good 1600 ISO. The Sony has very good res and Zeiss glass, and the Canon has ... the new TS/E lenses among which a 17mm (!!)

 

Edmund

[like_no_other]

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The discussion is probably neither here not there from Leica's perspective. What matters is how the system performs, not how much hot air it generates on internet forums.

 

I don't understand your first sentence.

 

To the second: charisma of Leica products was probably responsible for a lot of their sales in the past. This will not change in the nearer future. At least I see no reason why it should.

Hot air are hypothetical micron and mµ discussions since nobody can really and convincing translate them to picture quality because there are more factors. At least not the people who talk about these things on internet forums.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

So? Guy is a reputed technical photographer. Consistency in results is exactly what clients in that field demand. Doesn't mean Guy cannot find ways to work smarter.

 

I do agree that Guy could probably deliver the same quality with the equipment he owned a few years ago. But if he wants to change, because the new stuff makes his life easier or more fun, that's his choice. It has the advantage for now of bringing a competent pro to this board. Although I have a feeling that once a 17mm Canon TS/E finds his way into his hands he may get a new "camera wife".

 

Edmund

 

Not sure I could go back to canon. Still have those darn AA filters on them. Reason I went the DMR route. My mistake was not keeping One DMR and One M8 at the same time. But the files from the Phase are amazing and it does show. I am hoping this S2 is a success though and it really is a sweetie . Has a lot going for it and something we have not talked about much is the CS and FP shutters is a very powerful option in this system and obviously nothing in 35mm can match that. Seriously my biggest worry is how Leica is going to price this out. If this body is 2 times more expensive than a D3X and More than a H31 or P30 plus than it is in dire trouble. At least from a Pro's point of view with systems in place it will be hard to switch them. Asking twice as much as a D3x will be hard to move people up. Given the economy and shooters feeling the pinch pretty hard even worse. When Vegas is pretty quiet you have to wonder.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, I have had such difficulty in real world off-tripod use of the P45+ that I really don't want to go that route again. In fact, this week, I think I'll go and have the mount changed to Contax which will at least give me access to some faster glass and less mirror slap.

 

And you oughta try the Sony or Canon or Nikon of the latest gen, they each have some interesting abilities; my Nikon D3x has superb AF for instance and very good resolution, and good 1600 ISO. The Sony has very good res and Zeiss glass, and the Canon has ... the new TS/E lenses among which a 17mm (!!)

 

Edmund

 

Contax is real slow on AF and sucks batteries like water , be careful there. Monopod maybe your best friend.

 

I tried the Sony and D3x and actually been thinking about adding the Sony. They are very nice and reason the S2 needs to be careful how they go after the market.

[like_no_other]

Hi there, are you thinking about the aesthetic characteristics of the camera and lenses? They don't look 'M' like to me that is true ;-). Of course that's completely unimportant for how well they will work. For me, the Leica 'magic' is there for all to see in the magnificent MTF diagrams that we have seen for the new lens designs! Just amazing optical design, it seems.

 

Yes, aesthetic factors I meant. You are correct, they don't determine how well the product works. But I think it's risky to break the former aesthetic Leica rules (sales success).

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hi there, are you thinking about the aesthetic characteristics of the camera and lenses? They don't look 'M' like to me that is true ;-). Of course that's completely unimportant for how well they will work. For me, the Leica 'magic' is there for all to see in the magnificent MTF diagrams that we have seen for the new lens designs! Just amazing optical design, it seems.

 

Geoff they are not that pretty to be honest in a way. They are designed though in 72 and 82 filter sizes and they are straight barrels all the way through and not tapered like a Nikon or Canon lens. The reason for this is manufacturing costs they can keep using the same tube in different lenses just make them longer or shorter depending on the lens elements. This will save some costs the M series Summarits share the same tubing as well and that helped keep costs down. BTW all lens hood on the S lenses are reversed for storage and all are bayonet style.

 

Also not sure I mentioned it but the S lenses will be compatible most likely through a adapter for there special project camera which is what they are calling it. AKA former R or whatever name they come up with. My guess 4 months after this one.

[thrid]

RED know how to design cameras that can do XX images per second. This would mean the S2r could do liveview, video, and even fast series of stills for fashion shoots, the only MF camera to have that ability.

Red seem to do ok with their image quality; in any case more pros use RED for their living than Leicas. I'd say that RED demonstrated how a start-up can provide new high quality technology in the image market; they made a product and money off that product so I think your description of their incompetence might be slightly fallacious.

Edmund

 

The RED has been a work in progress for years and it's only been in perhaps the last year or two that the Red One has been stable enough to be useable. While the Red One can produce some remarkable images, RED has blown more hot air and marketing hype than any other company I have ever encountered and that includes more than 15 years in 'the biz'.

[eronald]

Contax is real slow on AF and sucks batteries like water , be careful there. Monopod maybe your best friend.

 

I tried the Sony and D3x and actually been thinking about adding the Sony. They are very nice and reason the S2 needs to be careful how they go after the market.

 

 

The D3x has this incredible hi-iso quality and the AA filter simply doesn't exist - I set the in-camera sharpening to +1, shoot straight Jpegs and like what comes out, no need to go back to the Raw in 99% of cases, the Jpeg converter is so good. Focus is *the best*

 

The Sony is ... cheap, but no shift. Focus is supposed to be good on enter point.

 

The 5DII is cheap, and has the new shift lenses. 1Ds3 focus doesn't work. I want/need fast good AF but that isn't a problem for you.

 

The S2 will probably be very good to extraordinary in studio. I expect those lenses to be world-beaters. I dn't think they will be able to do the Hi-ISO, even Sony couldn't do it with the sensor they share with Nikon. Unless they purchase some soviet scientist.

 

On the other hand, used Hassies will probably be selling for $5K at that point - Hassy are doing a trade-in at 5000 Euros for the 39MP in France, which means "please sell your Hassy on the used market, please". I think this is their strategy to kill the competition.

 

Edmund

[thrid]

 

The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw. Every single lens is reference-class. If you have a 60 MP back and a not-so-good lens mounted on the front, what is the quality of those pixels? How many here have ever mounted a Leica R lens on a 1DsII/III? Most Canon lenses are not up to the task of resolving 21MP, yet a 30-year old R lens...

David

 

I think you are right about this. The glass will give Leica a very noticeable edge, especially wide open.

I used to shoot R glass on my 5D and with something like 50mm it was no contest.

The 2/50 Summicron-R ate anything that Canon made for breakfast and we are talking

about a lens that uses an optical formula from the late 1970's...

 

We already see this with the M8. The combination of no AA filter and modern M glass produces files that

pixel for pixel are sharper than those produced by cameras with higher MP counts.

[Gentleman Villain]

to get the best image you can from a DSLR which by definition is a Digital Single lens Reflex and exactly how I see this camera. It will pretty much bury anything in a DSLR arena and compare to the MF cousins in it's range.

__________________

 

My thoughts exactly

 

I was late to the hands-on demo at PMA but still got to check out the S2 behind glass. WOW! That is one sexy camera! I thought it looked much better in real-life than on the net. It was a bit smaller than I had imagined. Overall, it looked like a little sports car

 

When I first heard the announcement about the S2 I was ready to put my money down....I'm not concerned about working through the inevitable glitches that will plague a new camera system. That doesn't bother me at all...What I"ve realized is that for many years I've been pursuing the ultimate DSLR..And the S2 appears to be just that. But maybe, I don't really want the ultimate DSLR. Maybe, I want a view camera.

 

So anyhow, my thoughts on the subject have changed...and I've decided to purchase an M8.2 system and also a view camera system (probably linhof). A DSLR is a DSLR....The S2 is might just shape up to be the sweetest DSLR ever made up until this moment in time. But for my needs...I think it's time to split my photography between a 35mm rangefinder and a view camera.

 

Leica probably won't ever sell me an S2, but...the S2 perked my interest in Leica again...and now I'm definitely gonna invest in an M8.2 system.

[Guest Colt Seavers]

... a nice guy with big ego says nice things in big postings about a nice camera with a big sensor - there´s nothing wrong with it, gentlemen! So please stop your attacks!

[Gentleman Villain]

I hope that nobody is referring to Guy with the big ego remark. That's not the impression I get from him at all...

[Guest Colt Seavers]

I hope that nobody is referring to Guy with the big ego remark. That's not the impression I get from him at all...

 

 

There´s nothing wrong with a big ego, it´s part of the show and i enjoy every single posting of Guy!

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[AlanG]

Guy talikng : I am still worried how they will price this, than you delete the rest of the sentence so it looks like something completely different than what I said

 

 

When I had a Rollei sytem, I had 2 6006 bodies, 6 lenses (40,50,80,150,250 & 350.) Plus lots of accessories. So I had quite a lot of stuff and this was not even my main system - I shot mostly with roll film on 4x5 and I also had a 35mm system and a few specialized cameras.

 

So if a shooter is getting jobs promising to shoot them with an S2, I think that would require ownership of at least 2 bodies and 5 lenses in order to have basic flexibility and a backup. If you just figure on $15,000 for a body and an average price of $4,000 per lens plus some extra batteries and accesories, you are over $50,000. (Guestimating lens prices based on what Leica charged for M and R lenses - I could be low but I doubt if I am high.) And I bet the 24, 30 tilt shift and zoom lenses will be higher than $4,000

 

Two years ago, I could have justified this expense if I really felt my work would benefit from it. Today, I question whether my work would benefit from it, plus the volume of work I am getting would preclude the expenditure.

 

I hate to get into numbers, especially ones that may be construed as personal. But I want to give a realistic picture to those of you who are not working in this field. So let's say I am talking in general and not about me. In a good market, grossing 20-50k per month was realistic for someone in my field. In this market, grossing 5-10k per month is not guaranteed. So when you consider overhead, retirement savings, etc., that can make paying out $50k kind of a big deal.

[thrid]

I think the S2 system looks a bit too much aseptic for a Leica camera and Leica lenses.

The lens design reminds me of Sony Zeiss lenses.

I furthermore think that I'm not alone with this impression as the discussion's tenor is more or less about mathematical perfect lens design, microns and µ's.

I wonder how a Leica lacking magical charisma will sell?

 

Well, it does look like an R8/R9 more than anything. Personally I have always been very fond of the way those cameras look. I don't see the Sony/Zeiss connection, other that the lenses are featureless 'tubes', but then again so were some of the R-zooms. No matter how you cut it, the design of the system has a very German (modern) look. To me it looks like a Leica.

 

Leica should be given credit for breaking industry convention and designing a larger than 135 format system that isn't based on a cube, like pretty much all other MF systems.

 

The S2 in itself is a pretty radical concept. Who else is is making a 'tweener' format camera? I think people still are amazed that something like this came from such a small company and how good it appears to be. Rumors about a larger than 135 format camera from Canon/Nikon have been swirling around for a long time and so far are a no show. I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that we will see something similar from them in the next year or two. Everyone realizes that it's going to get tricky to cram more than 25-30 MP in a 135 format DSLR and retain current noise levels and it is not entirely clear that anyone aside from Olympus is willing to give up the megapixel marketing race. Unless the S2 becomes the fluke, runaway best seller of the decade it is not a threat to either company, but it certainly is a symbolic wake up call.