S2 and my impressions

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Not speculation. I learned this info at Photokina and reconfirmed it with the product manager just a few days ago at PMA. S lenses will be fully functional on the R10 (or whatever they end up calling it) with the use of a Leica-made adapter.

 

David

 

Thanks David. My guess is that this means the R10's AF-R lenses most likely will use an electronically-controlled aperture (which IMHO - from an engineer's perspective - does not necessarily limit the use of manual-focus R lenses).

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, I think that the S2 IQ will not just equal/beat the P30+, but also the P45+. The P65 is a different story....

 

The P45+ at 39MP and the S2 at 37.5MP are pretty much a dead heat. Yes, the P45+ sensor is 36x48mm and the S2 is 30x45mm. So the larger sensor has only a 28% larger area than the S2. Remember that the 6um sensor tech in the S2 is the same latest generation that is now going into the H3DII/50/60 and P65+. The CCD in the P45+, while excellent, is now 4 or 5 year-old technology.

 

The S2 uses microlenses which are offset as they get towards the edge of the frame (just like the DMR and M8). This is unique to Leica, AFIK and really helps with the performance of wide angle lenses. It also should help improve high ISO performance, along with the Maestro image processor.

 

The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw. Every single lens is reference-class. If you have a 60 MP back and a not-so-good lens mounted on the front, what is the quality of those pixels? How many here have ever mounted a Leica R lens on a 1DsII/III? Most Canon lenses are not up to the task of resolving 21MP, yet a 30-year old R lens handles it with ease. I would expect the same to happen in MF-land, except the S lenses take the performance of R and M lenses to a whole new level.

 

Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane.

 

There is also no play whatsoever in the lens mount or sensor. When dealing at these levels of detail, any weakness in the imaging chain will result in a loss of potential performance. Certain MF cameras are notorious for wiggly lenses. The tolerances are just too tight to have slop.

 

So, yeah, I think that the S2, despite a slightly smaller sensor than the P45, will, from a system perspective, beat the P45+/H3DII-39 on several counts of IQ: high ISO performance, dynamic range, per-pixel detail, overall sharpness, micro-contrast, bokeh, and "feel." Not to mention lens specific strengths like lack of CA, vignetting, distortion, field curvature, coma, flare, and ghosting, as well as being able to shoot wide-open and still maintain good contrast and corner sharpness. And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.

 

David

 

As replied to at my place

 

To me the S2 is a very grown up 35mm DSLR and with that comes the same limitations we always have had. BTW a couple Mamiya lenses shoot very well wide open too not to mention others. What we have not even discussed is the range of lenses available to Hassy,Contax,Hy6 and Mamiya bodies. I can take any V lens and use it on my Mamiya and Hassy owners have more choices than bayer makes aspirin. I have no doubts the S2 will perform wonderfully but I also have some real doubts a 24mm will NOT distort and like the M8 it is starting to sound like some processing is being done to the DNG before it leaves the camera as well. To correct a 24mm for distortion in the manufacturing process takes a special design with regards to corrections and that cost money. Now I am not sure on the in camera processing but any lens that we call perfect has to cost a fortune to make. Sorry that just makes sense. Let's look at one lens here that I know is very good since I have it BUT it does have it's issues. The Mamiya 28mm for example we all know from my writing at least and shooting the corners are a touch soft and it does have slight barrel. Let me remind you of a not so perfectly designed lens cost 5400 retail . What would a perfect designed equivalent cost ? . The Hassy 28 obviously costs somewhere around 4600 and again a not so perfectly designed lens. Hassy obviously fixes it in software and Mamiya has controls also to fix certain things. Okay my point being a perfect lens maybe 9 k to market. How do we balance that when Phocus corrects everything needed and mamiya gets it almost perfect except for the corners which they still are working on in the corrections. This is why i brought up I am really worried about the price when the S2 hits the streets and many MF shooters already have thousands invested in a system that may not be perfect but certainly works. Too me I agree it is a niche product and may really benefit those in 35mm land and want bigger . This camera is aimed right at the fashion guys more than any other industry and not so much other commercial applications that a lot of us here do.

 

Don't get me wrong I am excited about this product and I think it actually may do very well but if Leica over prices this with the quality of the A900, D3x and 1dsMKII on the markets under 8k for a body than this makes you wonder. Reason i said don't light up my rocket yet. I maybe impulsive but I still have to justify it in my head. Right now with money tight and a system already bought and paid for and the tought of taking a complete bath on it and than add thousands more . Hmmm somebody throw the cold water on me. LOL

 

Now I do like the s2 alot and it will perform very well but I agree with David K you will have a hard time against a P45 plus with Mamiya and good lenses and a tech camera on any level. We say bigger is better all the time and Leica is pushing that over 35mm than on the other hand it is smaller than the P45 sensor and they say now it will compete with it. Sorry that does not compute. You can't have bigger on one than say smaller on another is equal to it

 

Wanted to add this. It will be a very powerful tool and certainly take anyone in 35mm way over the power curve. And for a lot of folks this will do the trick. It has a certain audience and we need to realize this and it keeps getting overlooked. Bottom line and I can't empathize this enough is it is a DSLR with MF quality at a certain level and above anything being made today in 35mm.

[eronald]

Those of us who actually own MF equipment know it's wonderful on a tripod or with flash. Here in the Paris winter, between camera shake and lacking DOF you cannot use digital MF@ISO 100 outside the midday sun, even for portraits.

 

The only thing which would make the S2 saleable is a newer faster sensor which can do really good 800 and 1600 ISO. And we won't get that, the Kodak sensor being previewed now will basically be obsolete at effective product launch in 2010.

 

It's time for a reality check. A MF built like a tank, with SLR handling and superb lenses is a very good idea. However a field camera needs to go out in the field, and that Kodak sensor is inadequate. So, you guys here go out and buy a Nikon D3x, enjoy the perfect 1600 ISO at 25MP, and come back for the S2.1 in 2011.

 

Or else, maybe someone can explain to Leica that finding a decent sensor is more important than saphire glass options and Wi-fi options.

 

By the way my Phase back's sensor is unbeatable, even a 10MP crop from a 39MP image can be enlarged to 44", no issues; but that works on a tripod - take it off the tripod and camera shake and lack of DOF kills the quality. My everyday camera is now a D3x set at 1600 ISO, good pictures, good focus, good quality, decent lenses MF 20/2.8, AF 85/1.4, built like a tank.

 

Edmund

[mooky]

"The only thing which would make the S2 saleable is a newer faster sensor which can do really good 800 and 1600 ISO. And we won't get that, the Kodak sensor being previewed now will basically be obsolete at effective product launch in 2010.

 

It's time for a reality check. A MF built like a tank, with SLR handling and superb lenses is a very good idea. However a field camera needs to go out in the field, and that Kodak sensor is inadequate. So, you guys here go out and buy a Nikon D3x, enjoy the perfect 1600 ISO at 25MP, and come back for the S2.1 in 2011."....(Edmond)

 

I'm happy you are happy with your Nikon and assume we all want or need to use one and are an expert on the Kodak sensor Leica will use when the S2 hits the streets.

 

Not.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

It's actually a new 6 micron sensor for the S2

[Guest volkerm]

To me the S2 is a very grown up 35mm DSLR

 

The user interface, AF and speed are not up to 35mm DSLR standards.

[Guest volkerm]

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Than another level that will have loaner service on a 24 or 48 hour turn to get a loaner.

 

That's pretty much standard. As a member of the Nikon Professional Service, you get this service free of charge.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

In MF this is usually tied into the type of warranty contract you buy for example I can speak Phase because that is what i know . The 3 year warranty gives you overnight loaner service and a free one time mount swap if you change systems plus some other goodies as well . Bigger charger, extra battery and so on. Different systems obviously have different types and also your dealer could have there own in house service. BYW a mount swap to say Hassy mount is 2500 dollars I believe . Right now we do not know what leica is offering here on the different levels of service,repair and loaners.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The user interface, AF and speed are not up to 35mm DSLR standards.

 

Actually not entirely true. It is as fast on review, zooming and user interface the part that is slower would be buffer and shooting speed. Your stuffing a 37mpx file through a pipeline so that will be slower than a 24mpx and Nikon can shoot faster . But as you now the D3 and D3x having different FPS so as you get bigger obviously things like this will slow down. Now that is logical but things have changed some the new P65 60 mpx 6 micron back coming out can shoot 1 frame every second. My P25 plus which is older design can only go one shot every 1.5 seconds . So i can't shoot until a second and half passes by. Now that is slow. LOL But there is a shift in the MF side of the world that things are getting faster with the new technology. The S2 I tried at the demo on manual at 1/250 of a second and it seemed pretty quick like 1 One thousand 2 one thousand. Now it also kept trying to focus because of low light and this really need to be tested under much better light to eliminate any sort of delay there. I think the camera was on AFC too which did not help it in very low light. We will have to see how this shakes out in real world . But overall coming from the MF world it was much quicker. Leica needs to decide who this is going up against too sure it beats the MF speed but not the 35mm speed in regards to shooting.

[eronald]

Now it also kept trying to focus because of low light and this really need to be tested under much better light to eliminate any sort of delay there. I think the camera was on AFC too which did not help it in very low light. We will have to see how this shakes out in real world .

 

The real world, as concerns the studio for people shoots, is that you focus by modelling lights which are dialled low so the girls have nice large pupils. Photographers studios are usually fairly dark places, in my experience. And the S2 I tried at Photokina was also a bit slow.

 

I think the S2 is a good idea, but the bar needs to be raised. At the moment it would be barely ok i it works at 120% of what is promised; they need to spec it at 200% of its now spec, and then deliver 90% of that.

 

Leica's goals as far as the S2 body goes are too conservative to make an impression. The lens goals were more ambitious - and look, here the results are superb!

 

I think the S2 ***body*** should be dropped now and redesigned - it's going to be obsolete at release.

 

None of us here wants that. I recommend anyone involved with the S2 project at Leica take a Nikon D3x out for a spin, and see how it converts from a 7 i/s sports shooter on AF to a 2i/s landscape camera, check what it can do with a Zeiss MF lens, and then sit down and do a redesign of the sensor and electronics which goes into the S2 body.

 

Im' sure the RED guys would be delighted to provide Leica in with a good sensor and electronics in exchange of some nice lenses to mount on their cine combocams.

 

Edmund

 

 

Edmund

[georg]

What's wrong with the S2 sensor and electronics? Ok, it can't do video or Liveview - is that so important for that market?

 

Right now, the Dalsa and Kodak CCDs deliver the highest IQ of any digital photography-system.

The 6,0mikrometer-architecture is entirely new and it will take propably another 3-5 years to get the next generation - why is it outdated?

 

What can't the S2 do what the D3X is capable of? More advanced internal JPG-processing, propably. Faster AF? Yes, at the price of optics/mechanics. Cheaper? Yes. And sadly, it's IQ is miles away from todays MF-systems and what we can expect from the S2.

 

It's a different system for a different market, period.

 

The "RED guys" neither have competences to manufacture or develope CMOS/CCD-sensors or unique electronics at all. Right now, they're selling a 500€-Sigma-Zoom with better mechanics as "RED-zoom" for 5000€ - I'm not sure if they're interested in expensive high-quality Leica-lenses at all...

[eronald]

The CCD in question is outdated because it cannot do good 1600 ISO. Leica hope to then sell people fast lenses (like the 50mm Noct on the M8). But in fact, an MF system without 1600 ISO is mostly unusable in European winter daylight, or for available light indoors. California would be ok, I guess. The reason is that DOF is less on an MF system, while camera shake is aggressive because of the larger shutter and mirror, and the high pixel density means you want the sharp images you paid for.

 

 

RED know how to design cameras that can do XX images per second. This would mean the S2r could do liveview, video, and even fast series of stills for fashion shoots, the only MF camera to have that ability.

 

 

Red seem to do ok with their image quality; in any case more pros use RED for their living than Leicas. I'd say that RED demonstrated how a start-up can provide new high quality technology in the image market; they made a product and money off that product so I think your description of their incompetence might be slightly fallacious.

 

Lastly, quite a few images form Hassies and Phase MF systems have been published. If you claim that the S2 is so much better than my Phase back, or even my Nikon, then go ahead and show me the pictures. I am prepared to shoot my cameras alongside your S2 if you happen to have them, provided I am then allowed to publish both sets of pictures. If you claim it *will* be better, then I am delighted in your ability to predict the future - do you also do well in picking stocks these days?

 

I like the S2 concept, but it needs a pre-release update. The 5DII and the Nikon and Sony models have really hit the market very hard, and their updates are also coming.

 

Edmund

 

What's wrong with the S2 sensor and electronics? Ok, it can't do video or Liveview - is that so important for that market?

 

Right now, the Dalsa and Kodak CCDs deliver the highest IQ of any digital photography-system.

The 6,0mikrometer-architecture is entirely new and it will take propably another 3-5 years to get the next generation - why is it outdated?

 

What can't the S2 do what the D3X is capable of? More advanced internal JPG-processing, propably. Faster AF? Yes, at the price of optics/mechanics. Cheaper? Yes. And sadly, it's IQ is miles away from todays MF-systems and what we can expect from the S2.

 

It's a different system for a different market, period.

 

The "RED guys" neither have competences to manufacture or develope CMOS/CCD-sensors or unique electronics at all. Right now, they're selling a 500€-Sigma-Zoom with better mechanics as "RED-zoom" for 5000€ - I'm not sure if they're interested in expensive high-quality Leica-lenses at all...

[mooky]

"Leica's goals as far as the S2 body goes are too conservative to make an impression. The lens goals were more ambitious - and look, here the results are superb!

 

I think the S2 ***body*** should be dropped now and redesigned - it's going to be obsolete at release.

 

None of us here wants that. I recommend anyone involved with the S2 project at Leica take a Nikon D3x out for a spin, and see how it converts from a 7 i/s sports shooter on AF to a 2i/s landscape camera, check what it can do with a Zeiss MF lens, and then sit down and do a redesign of the sensor and electronics which goes into the S2 body." (Edmond)

 

 

Wow, you are really an expert - (excuse me) and if you are so knowledgeable, send your ideas to Leica and let them decide.

[eronald]

Exactly what I'm doing. I prefer to criticize the design now during the design stages, and have them improve the design so I can buy the camera on release. If people had done the same with the M8, it would have been a much better camera on release.

Edmund

 

 

Wow, you are really an expert - (excuse me) and if you are so knowledgeable, send your ideas to Leica and let them decide.

[hoppyman]

Guy I have come to this thread to learn about the S2. I would guess that there is some pre-existing personal emnity for reasons I don't know about. I don't know what has gone on before, but I'm completely bewildered by the tone and unpleasantness of the post directed against you.

In any event I am finding all of the S2 information extremely interesting and helpful, both from this thread and from David's blog. Thanks for your efforts.

 

 

 

I do not take to insults very well and certainly not deserved when i helped put this all together with David.

__________________

[mooky]

I agree. I just think that while Nikon is fine and well, it is a completely different animal to the S2.

 

I also think that Leica handcuffed itself by thinking too much 'inside the box' with the M8 design both inside and outside. Leica is extremely capable of thinking outside the box but has a bit of a history of sitting on it's ideas. BYTW, I would have liked to have seen an even more unique design and spec's, but given the nearly (re)start-up nature of the company with it's ideas, I'll hope that they hit the ground running and don't look back.

 

I have always made it a habit of letting them know what I think of the designs and the results. Years ago when they had more offices, you could go in and talk directly to the Rep's about the equipment. Now most of them are independent salesman, and some really don't have much knowledge of the company history (and sometimes the lineage of the products).

 

So, it always helps to communicate to them. I think it would be good for them to just have an email for comments and ideas that go to a 'computer suggestion box' instead of having to wonder whether our comment(s) has been read, or even opened. The L Forum may be read by them, but it's not the same as reaching out.

[eronald]

So, it always helps to communicate to them. I think it would be good for them to just have an email for comments and ideas that go to a 'computer suggestion box' instead of having to wonder whether our comment(s) has been read, or even opened. The L Forum may be read by them, but it's not the same as reaching out.

 

 

The Leica design team can be met at Photokina, and they have excellent cakes there. They are very nice, very smart, but they get a lot of "advice" from customers. I just wish people were a bit more direct to them and less in awe.

 

I played around with the S2 at Photokina, I discussed some colorimetric aspects where they may or may not value my input (I'm an ICC member), but I couldn't tell them to their face that I already had one 39MP MF camera that is unusable in 90% of situations and superb the other 10% of the time and didn't want another... I want something that will come out ahead most of the time.

 

When the D3x came along I took about 10 minutes to decide to get one because I immediately could see that it would handle those 90% of photographic situations *better* than the back. The D3 or D700 don't really punch in that weight class, but the D3x does, and it and its update will compete with the S2. Let's not forget that a good AF system and fast shutter ability because of Hi ISO create very sharp imagery whatever the MP.

 

It's even more of a pity that the M8 cannot do what the Nikon D3 or D700 can do: Shoot at 6400ISO or 25000(!!!) ISO and bring back images with huge depth of field in available light situations. I think Leica should have made a deal for a fast sensor. Slap a 20mm lens on a D3 or D700 and you have the ultimate point and shoot.

 

Edmund

 

PS Guy - don't lose your cool! It's not worth it. Best regards, I hope to see you in Albuquerque in the fall.

[stunsworth]

think the S2 ***body*** should be dropped now and redesigned - it's going to be obsolete at release

 

That's exactly what was said about the DMR.

[like_no_other]

I think the S2 system looks a bit too much aseptic for a Leica camera and Leica lenses.

The lens design reminds me of Sony Zeiss lenses.

I furthermore think that I'm not alone with this impression as the discussion's tenor is more or less about mathematical perfect lens design, microns and µ's.

I wonder how a Leica lacking magical charisma will sell?

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[stunsworth]

I furthermore think that I'm not alone with this impression as the discussion's tenor is more or less about mathematical perfect lens design, microns and µ's.

I wonder how a Leica lacking magical charisma will sell?

 

The discussion is probably neither here not there from Leica's perspective. What matters is how the system performs, not how much hot air it generates on internet forums.