Is the S2 dead?

[AlanG]

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PS. If Leica made third party versions of its R lenses available in N or C mount I'd be running to buy a couple. What's stopping them?

Edmund

 

I've been thinking about this too. It seems to me that Leica realized that their manufacturing costs are so high that it necessitates charging more for lenses than a lot of 35mm users will pay. ($2800 for a 50mm f1.4) This would have made the R system pretty uncompetitive even if it had AF and a modern DSLR. But it can't cost that much more to manufacture the S2 lenses where the camera will be positioned in a market segment that is used to paying several thousand dollars for each lens.

 

At this point, considering that Leica is not currently in the 35mm DSLR market, I don't see why they can't license their lens designs to a builder who can make them at a lower price, and Leica can market them as premium lenses for Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. Builders such as Sigma and Tamron already know how to interface with the bodies. Maybe even make AF versions of them. I've always heard that when it comes to SLRs, the profit was in the lenses.

 

Zeiss was always making lenses for many different brands. At one time Rollei made Zeiss designed lenses in Singapore for the SLX and 6000 series system and other Rollei cameras. I think the word was that they were just as good as the German made lenses.

 

Danaher owns the Leica microscope company but Leica branded microscopes are made all over the world by what formerly were several companies. The $399 ones are probably made in China and the $399,000 ones are probably made in Germany or Switzerland.

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[AlanG]

Here's an idea; For those with bad experiences and doubtful feelings about the S2/Leica - don't buy it/Leicas, don't use it/Leicas. There, your bad experiences and doubts are gone and now you can be happy.

 

Well I don't have any bad feelings but I would always be skeptical about investing in an expensive brand new system that has no track history. Especially if my business was dependent on it.

 

Years ago I switched from Hasselblad to the Rollei 6006 system. I never regretted it but as the camera was new, there were a number of issues that came up and had to be worked out over time. I wasn't nearly as dependent on it as one could be on an S2, so it wasn't a major problem. And Marflex fixed them fast and often could loan me gear. But at one point, I had three bodies just to be sure that one would be working.

 

I think if you are taking jobs where your clients expect them to be shot on an S2, you'll have to consider owning two of them. Even if they are very well built and tested, something can always go wrong on the job. And some of the jobs that require medium format, might have a lot of people sitting around staring at you - models, clients, AEs, ADs, make-up artist, stylists, assistants... plus travel fees, location fees, etc. A failure can be expensive.

 

This would be true for other brands also, but with a system that uses a removable back, you could at least have a spare body even if you don't have another digital back. (Or have a lower priced digital back as a spare.) Maybe FF 35mm as back-up is acceptable, maybe not.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if well heeled enthusiasts become a large percentage of the buyers of the S2. Around here there are many jewelry stores that are packed with wrist watches that cost much more than an S2.

[mooky]

Not an idea, it's a reality.

 

Which part?

 

So don't use the system then. Is it that complicated? If you've had an experience you didn't like and feel that it's not the equipment for you then don't use it.

 

AlanG....."Well I don't have any bad feelings but I would always be skeptical about investing in an expensive brand new system that has no track history. Especially if my business was dependent on it".......

 

Alan, then don't worry about it - don't buy it, until you are sure it suits your needs. As for your comments that Leica could license the manufacture of it's designs to a cheaper manufacturer/costs; Alan, did it occur that people deserve to make a living wage - and have health insurance/benefits which is also part of the equation and why the equipment costs in Europe are higher? Leica has a philosophy and traditions and a history that go beyond price-points.

 

Perhaps that is not important to you, but it is important to many others, including myself. This whole thread has gone to far for my tastes, and your needs or wants are not those of everyone.

[AlanG]

Alan, did it occur that people deserve to make a living wage - and have health insurance/benefits which is also part of the equation and why the equipment costs in Europe are higher? Leica has a philosophy and traditions and a history that go beyond price-points.

 

Yes it occurred to me. Those people will make the lenses for the S2. Price points are important for any business model. They stopped making the R lenses some time ago and Leica isn't making any money from those designs. They aren't making their p&s cameras in house either. Buying lenses from Asian companies and putting their name on them is nothing new for Leica. They did that with Minolta and other companies. And I bet they outsource a lot of parts from suppliers around the world using competitive bids.

 

There simply may not be a big enough market for $2800 50mm F1.4 lenses regardless of how much anyone might want to protect the workers. So I'm suggesting they expand their market by selling their lenses in various mounts. If they can build them in Germany and sell enough to make some money, that would be fine with me. Why let good lens design and technology go to waste?

 

I haven't spent a second worrying about the standard of living of German workers. As a self employed American, I don't have close to the European safety net. A good friend of mine lives in Frankfurt and works for Lufthansa so I know how it works over there.

 

So now they are going to make lenses for a camera where more people may be willing to pay the high price. That is smart. I keep telling my clients that I am worth more too. But they don't always agree with me. I have competition. But I can also look for better clients.

 

I mentioned being skeptical about waiting to see how the S2 shakes out because I am of the opinion that a lot of other pros will feel the same way. The enthusiasts are more likely to be early adopters. Maybe I'm wrong an it will be an overnight sensation in the professional market.

[pascal_meheut]

Maybe I'm wrong an it will be an overnight sensation in the professional market.

 

I'm sure it will not be an overnight sensation and I'm not sure it's the plan. But selling enough to make the new system viable would be a good thing.

[plasticman]

DOA? I don't think so. How can putting the latest sensor and computing tech in a rugged, small, easy-to-handle, weather-sealed package coupled with the most uncompromising and outstanding optics ever produced be DOA?!

 

Thanks David - this really does cheer me up. I'm genuinely worried about what's going to happen to Leica - I'm hoping it's there for as long as I want to take photographs - and this reassures me.

[mooky]

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Thanks David - this really does cheer me up. I'm genuinely worried about what's going to happen to Leica - I'm hoping it's there for as long as I want to take photographs - and this reassures me.

 

Yes plasticman, I agree 1000%

 

And thank you David for your efforts.

[stevelap]

The S2 should offer 800 and 1600 ISO in full res, and offer up to 3200 (and possibly 6400) ISO in 9.3 MP pixel-binning mode. This is where the latest CCD and ASIC technology in the S2 is really far ahead, actually.

 

The S2 has the fastest on-board image processing of any MF system. Real-time is real-time. No delay whatsoever in turning on, shooting, reviewing, zooming, etc. The Maestro processor in the S2 is even able to turn out DNG+JPG large in the same amount of time as DNG only.

 

Your P45+ has a sensor that is four years old from original date of manufacture (2005). The DMR and M8 both use the same 6.8u Kodak CCD tech. The KAF-39000 in your P45+ back is a great sensor, but the KAF-37500 in the S2 is truly a generation ahead. Better S/N, higher ISO capability, greater dynamic range, and faster data readout. Hardly a joke.

 

The S2 is also the only MF system using offset microlenses (just like the M8 and DMR). This compensates for any light falloff due to a steep angle of incidence towards the edge of the frame. Phase and Hasselblad both compensates for this in software (LCC and DAC, respectively).

 

The LCD screen on the S2 is head and shoulders better than any I've seen on MFD backs. 3" with good resolution and visible in daylight. The lack of good quality screens in MFD has always baffled me. It seemed that the more you spent, the worse the LCD you got. It is the first LCD that I've seen offered with adjustable screen brightness, adjustable backlight brightness, and an ambient light sensor. The top-deck color OLED screen is also a first, not just for MF, but any DSLR.

 

These are just a few examples of why the S2 will actually be the most advanced MF on the market. Believe me, there are more and this is without discussing the lenses.

 

A lot of people keep harping on the fact that the S2 isn't really MF. Well, the P30+, H3DII-31, and Leaf Aptus-II 6 all use a 33x44mm sensor. Most would agree that these are "real" MF. The S2 uses a 30x45mm sensor. So, the total sensor area of these "well respected MF backs" is a whopping 7% larger than that of the S2. I personally like to shoot in 2:3 ratio and if I crop one of the 3:4 backs, I'll actually get a smaller capture area than the S2.

 

DOA? I don't think so. How can putting the latest sensor and computing tech in a rugged, small, easy-to-handle, weather-sealed package coupled with the most uncompromising and outstanding optics ever produced be DOA?! Maybe I'm spoiled because I've gotten to play with camera and had access to the product managers for greater insight into the technical and marketing aspects of the S2, but I just don't understand the ongoing negativity. The S2 is out-of-the-box thinking at its best, by a company that has the internal resources, the motivation, and the capitalization to make it happen.

 

David

 

Thanks for this timely post David. The detail you're able to bring to the discussion, based upon fact and/or informed research, reinforces the comments from those of us trying to counter some of the more lurid, and frankly misleading, misinformation that has been posted recently. Such as the 'old,100 ISO sensor' and other similar nonsense.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but posts that stray into the realm of the faintly ridiculous surely only serve to devalue the thread.