John Maio Posted October 18, 2006 Share #1 Posted October 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) If you are a C1-PRO user and have installed the latest upgrade (V 3.7.5), you will already be able to open M8 DNG files according to the C1 website. But I also asked Phase One this question: Also, since Leica apparently has some "lens correction algorythms" keyed to their 6-Bit lens identification scheme, will these algorithms be available to C-1 Pro users? I went on to say that I preferred shooting RAW, etc., etc. ... and I received this answer: Dear John Thank you for your input! Capture One 4.0 will support DNG and probably also the lens correction tools. The release is sceheduled for the third quarter of 2007 and it's however therefore too early to say anything specific. We trust you understand this. Kind Regards Phase One Customer Support Denmark If this says what I think it does, it is quite interesting, would you agree? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Hi John Maio, Take a look here Some very interesting news about C1 .... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 18, 2006 Share #2 Posted October 18, 2006 That is interesting John. i would imagine 4.0 would hava a lot of correction tools in it also so this should be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 18, 2006 Share #3 Posted October 18, 2006 I suspected that might be the case. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted October 18, 2006 Share #4 Posted October 18, 2006 If this says what I think it does, it is quite interesting, would you agree? Although it would be nice to have the tools included in the raw converter, there are a number of plug-in or external applications that already provide some of the tools. I already correct the distortion on all my DMR files and it's pretty easy batching with an external application. Yes, it requires an additional step, but it allows me to use my own lens correction parameters this way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted October 18, 2006 Share #5 Posted October 18, 2006 John, I think the guys at C1 honestly misunderstood your question. The M8 is supposed to have internally optimised the performance of certain lenses with regard to vignetting and edge performance, and I'm assuming the way they're doing that is with input from the special microlenses *and* the 6-bit identification coding. So the next question is, how does Leica affect the RAW file with this (or do they?!--may be these corrections are JPEG-only! Another question for Leica!). But assuming this "correction" gets passed into the RAW workflow, they'd either have to 1) store some metadata / correction data in the RAW file or 2) have a special purpose RAW converter that can read the EXIF data and apply the corrections based on lens length / type. So which is it? Since C1 support for the M8 was developed in conjunction with Leica, they may actually be reading EXIF data and going from there. On the other hand, maybe Leica has special data in the DNG that any RAW converter can read. Interesting, no? In any case, I think C1 thought you were asking about generic lens corrections--perspective and lens angle corrections (you know, barrel and pincushion distortions, etc...) the way they're supported in ACR and other RAW converters. That is probably coming in V4 of C1, but... ...I hope the 3.7.5 version of C1 that supports the M8 now also supports the micro "lens optimizations"--one way or another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted October 18, 2006 Share #6 Posted October 18, 2006 John, I think the guys at C1 honestly misunderstood your question. The M8 is supposed to have internally optimised the performance of certain lenses with regard to vignetting and edge performance, and I'm assuming the way they're doing that is with input from the special microlenses *and* the 6-bit identification coding. So the next question is, how does Leica affect the RAW file with this (or do they?!--may be these corrections are JPEG-only! Another question for Leica!). But assuming this "correction" gets passed into the RAW workflow, they'd either have to 1) store some metadata / correction data in the RAW file or 2) have a special purpose RAW converter that can read the EXIF data and apply the corrections based on lens length / type. So which is it? Since C1 support for the M8 was developed in conjunction with Leica, they may actually be reading EXIF data and going from there. On the other hand, maybe Leica has special data in the DNG that any RAW converter can read. Interesting, no? In any case, I think C1 thought you were asking about generic lens corrections--perspective and lens angle corrections (you know, barrel and pincushion distortions, etc...) the way they're supported in ACR and other RAW converters. That is probably coming in V4 of C1, but... ...I hope the 3.7.5 version of C1 that supports the M8 now also supports the micro "lens optimizations"--one way or another. The raw files are raw and any meta data (except for EXIF and derivatives) are part of the raw converter. The raw converter recognizes the lens model (and body) and applies the appropriate settings. As for the micro lenses, they were physically optimized for the M sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 18, 2006 Share #7 Posted October 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was told the data coming off the code is actually written to the Raw. Now i am not so sure about that becuase given if the code is there than a Raw converter has to be able to read it and do something with it. So the question still remains is 3.75 optimized to read that data and actually do something with it. There are some big question marks in there surrounding the code and who it is for in camera jpeg processing which is the one i would think immediately or are the raws being written that way in camera which leica claims they are but who the hell can read it and is it already done before it hits the raw converter. So there are some BIG questions that still need to answered one is going back to the Raw file at 10 mgs hitting the card , how the hell did they do that and the DMR is 20 mgs hitting the card and is 16 bit or not Next one is the raw file getting the lens code written to it in camera and /or is it optimized by C1 or is it raw is raw is raw type of deal and nothing is happening to the file. 2 very looming questions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 18, 2006 Share #8 Posted October 18, 2006 The raw files are raw and any meta data (except for EXIF and derivatives) are part of the raw converter. The raw converter recognizes the lens model (and body) and applies the appropriate settings. As for the micro lenses, they were physically optimized for the M sensor. JR but were is it applying those settings in camera to the Raw or to C1 outside the raw with data attached Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted October 18, 2006 Share #9 Posted October 18, 2006 JR but were is it applying those settings in camera to the Raw or to C1 outside the raw with data attached For the JPG, the camera obviously has to "have" the corrections... For the raw, I haven't seen a field (except Private data) which would accomodate the correction info. From a design standpoint, it would mean pasting this info to all raw file rather than once in the raw converter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted October 18, 2006 Share #10 Posted October 18, 2006 ...So the question still remains is 3.75 optimized to read that data and actually do something with it. There are some big question marks in there surrounding the code and who it is for in camera jpeg processing which is the one i would think immediately or are the raws being written that way in camera which leica claims they are but who the hell can read it and is it already done before it hits the raw converter. Since the current version has no "controls" to toggle the usage of this info, I would assume that C1 does nothing with the 6-bit coding info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted October 18, 2006 Share #11 Posted October 18, 2006 I am confused by Phase One's response. If we are getting C1-LE with the M8 -- WILL it read DNG files or not? If not, do we have to wait until 3Q07 to get the solution? Has anyone played with C1 and the M8 DNG's? So, we are hearing that Adobe is ready but that Phase One who has been collaborating with Leica is not? Show me the horse so I can get the real skinny. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted October 18, 2006 Share #12 Posted October 18, 2006 I am confused by Phase One's response. If we are getting C1-LE with the M8 -- WILL it read DNG files or not? If not, do we have to wait until 3Q07 to get the solution? Has anyone played with C1 and the M8 DNG's? So, we are hearing that Adobe is ready but that Phase One who has been collaborating with Leica is not? Show me the horse so I can get the real skinny. Regards, Yes No Yes No The OP was referring to the 'enhancements' that the 6-bit coding info could provide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 18, 2006 Share #13 Posted October 18, 2006 Since the current version has no "controls" to toggle the usage of this info, I would assume that C1 does nothing with the 6-bit coding info. See and what I heard was the raw file is actually fixed in camera and the adjustments are already made to the raw and the raw convertor would not make any difference it was already done. Of course my eyebrows went straight up when I heard that becuase than our raw file is being optimized for us in camera, welll than it is not a raw file that we once knew as a raw file. See that is the question that we need confirmed, is this stuff being done in camera before it hits C1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Maio Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share #14 Posted October 18, 2006 John, I think the guys at C1 honestly misunderstood your question. Quite possibly, so I restated a summary of my understanding to tham: Dear Sir I believe there is some confussion here. Capture One 3.7.5 support the Leica M8 RAW files fully (which of course are DNG files) both in the LE and the PRO version. Kind Regards Phase One Support Thank you, this clarifies my understanding. My V3.7.5 of C1-PRO already supports the M8, and the next major release, V4.0, will offer many new features, possibly including lens correction tools. John Maio and finally - Sir This is correct and 4.0 will have a much higher performance aswell when it comes to preview generation and processing. Kind Regards Phase One Support Now I didn't push them on what "lens correction tools" actually means. As you know, ACR and some others already have generic tools to correct vignetting, barrel distortion, etc. But if V4.0 actually made corrections similar to what the camera's internal JPG processor does, based on what is buried within the DNG data when using coded lenses, it would be interesting indeed. Time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted October 18, 2006 Share #15 Posted October 18, 2006 See and what I heard was the raw file is actually fixed in camera and the adjustments are already made to the raw and the raw convertor would not make any difference it was already done. Of course my eyebrows went straight up when I heard that becuase than our raw file is being optimized for us in camera, welll than it is not a raw file that we once knew as a raw file. See that is the question that we need confirmed, is this stuff being done in camera before it hits C1 Outch! I'm 99.999% they didn't do this... but if they did, it would be nuts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 18, 2006 Share #16 Posted October 18, 2006 Exactly JR. but it maybe only certain things also like vignetting. I would like some info that we can sink our teeth into. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted October 18, 2006 Share #17 Posted October 18, 2006 Exactly JR. but it maybe only certain things also like vignetting. I would like some info that we can sink our teeth into. Indeed would be crazy. Here is why. Vignetting: I would be dangerous to "apply" to the raw file since it is destructive of information. Imagine a lens that vignettes 2.5 stops wide open. Now image a picture with the sky is almost white -- but not yet. The vignetting allows you to retain the cloud information. In this case, the vignetting correction must take into account that it potentially contains 'clipped' information... Anyway, you see what I'm getting at in terms on complexity. CA: In order to correct for CA, the images have to be de-bayered, corrected, and then re-bayered (if these are indeed words). In other word, the data is no longer raw. That wouldn't work. Distortion: The worse of all potential corrections to be applied to the raw files since it moves the pixels around. With some lenses, those pixels would be moved to the point of image degradation. That's why most lens distortion correction software allow you to remove less than 100% of the distortion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnll Posted October 18, 2006 Share #18 Posted October 18, 2006 On page 98 of the M8 manual it says ... "Notes: The standardized DNG (Digital Negative) format is used for uncompressed storage of completely unprocessed raw picture data. ..." and again on page 100: "Note: If the file format DNG is specified, these settings have no effect as in this case the image data is always saved in its original form (changes must be made later on the computer)" While this is talking specifically about sharpness, saturation and contrast, it sounds pretty emphatic that the RAW file actually do contain raw data. The six-bit lens ID code would allow the raw converter to look up parameters to adjust (say) vignetting and maybe some other issues, but I doubt these would include barrel/pincushion distortion as that can vary with point of focus, which is unknown to the M8, and is easy to do by hand in post anyway. Just some thoughts ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevme Posted October 18, 2006 Share #19 Posted October 18, 2006 I am confused by Phase One's response. If we are getting C1-LE with the M8 -- WILL it read DNG files or not? If not, do we have to wait until 3Q07 to get the solution? Has anyone played with C1 and the M8 DNG's? So, we are hearing that Adobe is ready but that Phase One who has been collaborating with Leica is not? Show me the horse so I can get the real skinny. Regards, If the purported M8 DNG files ALREADY on the net are really M8 files, then the answer is that C1 Pro, at least for Apple's OSX, already reads M8 DNG files. They have a recent update that you can downloard for free that enables C1 to read the M8 DNG files. I know, because I used C1 to read these DNG files. However, those files may not have been ACTUAL M8 files, so I cannot say for sure. I had no problem reading the DNG files, however. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 18, 2006 Share #20 Posted October 18, 2006 Thanks John and I hope that is the case , i have no issues with a tag to the raw file and than when C1 sees the file than those parameters can be applied or ignored. But we really want a raw file and if future C1 software can read that tag and we can make adjustments from it than so much the better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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