cpclee Posted October 17, 2006 Share #21 Posted October 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wow Chris, I can't believe you think competition in the M market is a bad thing. As far as CV and others not contributing to the mount I whole heartedly disagree. affordable 15mm? 35 f1.2? an extra two additions to the 40mm range? The fantastic neww Ziess lenses. The list is i'm sure longer, but those are the notables that have only appeared because competition was allowed. Leica will still be Leica and it does nothing to hurt their almost spotless reputation. However I sure enjoy the competition. _mike Mike you misunderstood my words. I said competition is good for the consumer but is free-riding from Leica's perspective. Leica is unusual in the industry in providing the kind of longterm support that it does which is what makes the M mount special. (Imagine if used M gear never existed and the M mount is introduced just today. Why should Zeiss/CV/Konica want to enter this market?) Keep in mind it costs Leica a great deal to hold parts inventory for decades (think about the capital that it ties up and the holding costs). Leica has to absorb these costs into the prices, which in term make them less price competitive. OTOH the competition just enjoys the benefit of M system's longevity without this overhead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Hi cpclee, Take a look here M8 instruction discoveries. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 17, 2006 Share #22 Posted October 17, 2006 They may not Robert and did not want to lead anyone on with my comment above they just did it with mine for some reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 17, 2006 Share #23 Posted October 17, 2006 Robert i have not read the full PDF yet but i think we lost our full lcd white line histo that we have on the DMR , i was really hoping they kept that. For folks that don't know what this is . As soon as you take a shot without touching anything on the LCD the preview shot comes up but if the camera setup correctly you can make a white line histo go across the entire screen on the LCD . So when you take a shot and look the histo is right there in big size so you can see where you are at immediately than it goes away . Than from there you can hit the info button and get the same data as the M and DMR with the little histo box. the nice thing is you don't have to hit any buttons with the white line histo. On the demo M8 i could not find it , I was hoping the final firmware would have it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted October 17, 2006 Share #24 Posted October 17, 2006 Some dumb things that I found that make me happy are they are using what I call the M6 camera strap and Capture One LE comes on a CD instead of a DVD as mentioned in some of the "in box" descriptions. I don't have a DVD drive, since I am waiting for that media to mature/settle down. The battery charger, while big, isn't a corded type, which makes packing it easier. Guy, the larger histogram would be nice, though for me, I haven't had a camera that gives a histogram in the preview mode. My chimping style hasn't fully matured yet..:-) Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 17, 2006 Share #25 Posted October 17, 2006 Gravastar: One point for Leica, two points for you "This has the respective effects on their perspective.....Perspective depends upon camera to subject distance and not focal length." You and Leica are both correct. Perspective depends on position, but presumably with, say, a 50mm lens, if you wanted a head-and-shoulders portrait, you would shoot from 1 meter with a film M, and back up to 1.33 meters with the M8 (to retain the same subject area vs. the crop). The change in position accounts for the change in perspective. Same for a mountain or a building - if a film M and 50 can frame it at 1km or 100 meters, you'd have to back up to 1.33 km or 133 meters with the M8 - and the perspective would change. "...but not on their depth of field, which, with the LEICA M8, can also be read directly off the lens. - - It's likely when printing, say a 10x8, the reproduction ratio for a full frame M7 and "crop" M8 image would be different so the original depth of field markings on the lens would no longer be correct for use with the M8." You are correct and Leica isn't - unless they've allowed so much leeway in the lens markings all these years that they still "work" even with the M8. After all - even lens markings assume a specific amount of enlargment, usually 8x10 I believe - so they don't neccesarily apply perfectly for 5x7s or 11x14s, even on a film camera. MY question is - what happened to the "switchable" digital moire filtering? I don't see any menu item to turn it on or off. I guess Leica is assuming that the people who don't want it will shoot RAW, and the people who shoot jpegs will want it on all the time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 17, 2006 Share #26 Posted October 17, 2006 I noticed in the PDF, they say the lens will get a calibration and an "External Cleaning" . This means they will put the new mount on and make sure the lens is calibrated properly to this mount and then clean the finger prints off the glass and exterior but not strip the lens down and do a CLA "Clean Lube Adjust". The info i got - from the same reps who serve Guy - is that, at least at Leica US, the lens mechanic sticks the lens sent in for coding on a collimator to check it, then installs the new mount, then puts the lens BACK on the collimator to make sure it is still up to spec (focusing to inifinity correctly, etc) before shipping it back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted October 17, 2006 Share #27 Posted October 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Since the zebra coding calls up internally stored data about a specific lens, it would be interesting to see how the camera reacts to your after-market coding of CV lenses. In other words, clearly the camera doesn't have any info stored for the competition; and whether a Zeiss 15, a CV 15 or both share a vignetting pattern with a particular Leica lens will be hard to tell without looking into the M8 firmware. Sounds like fun to try if you've got the gumption. I'm not into messing with things that technical, but if you're brave enough to try, more power to you! For me, I'd rather just switch off the lens recognition--but you'll still have that option if your modification doesn't do what you want! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 17, 2006 Share #28 Posted October 17, 2006 The easiest way to try out the coding to see if it works for you is to get an adhesive label and mark up the code using a black pen where required. Sure, it won't last very long but it should give you an idea of whether you want to code the lens. That's why I posted pictures of my coded lenses so that other folks can do just that if they're motivated to. The coded area is 12mm long. The 50mm f1.4 ASPH has just one black dot, for example. The manual cautions to switch off lens recognition when an uncoded lens is mounted but I expect a clean bayonet ring will not be misread - they must have reserved the "all-white" code to mean "uncoded lens". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlancasterd Posted October 17, 2006 Share #29 Posted October 17, 2006 .... As far as self coding I will probably only do it to some of my often used CV lenses. I'm pretty familure with the process of machining down a small portion of the mount and applying a matte enamel to the metal..... Mike... I assume from this that you will actually be machining/modifying one or more of the screw to bayonet adapters rather than the built-in M-mount of a leica or CV lens. I'd be interested in a full report in due course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted October 17, 2006 Share #30 Posted October 17, 2006 i noted two things: "cosmic radiation (while in flight,eg.) can cause pixel damage" the blue dot is an ambient light sensor used to set the viewfinder brightness; using an external viewfinder will cover the dot and the finder will default to full brighness, (there is no mention of any sort of aperture info in the exif data, so that diminishes the auto-aperture detect theory.) also could find no mention of using the blue dot for any pre-flash metering, (it really is TTL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 17, 2006 Share #31 Posted October 17, 2006 I've noticed a couple of possible inaccuracies/confusion in the manual, some part could be translation but not all. On page 87 where they talk about the extension factor: "Therefore, when used on the LEICA M8, these lenses have angles of view corresponding to lenses with focal lengths that are longer by a factor of 1.33 (1.33=reciprocal of 0.75) This has the respective effects on their perspective, but not on their depth of field, which, with the LEICA M8, can also be read directly off the lens (see the lens instruction manual for more details)." Perspective depends upon camera to subject distance and not focal length. Depth of field depends on reproduction ratio, aperture and chosen circle of confusion. It's likely when printing, say a 10x8, the reproduction ratio for a full frame M7 and "crop" M8 image would be different so the original depth of field markings on the lens would no longer be correct for use with the M8. Am I wrong or have I misinterpreted what Leica are saying? (I wouldn't want the thread to go off topic with a long discussion on this. ) Bob. Hi Bob, You are right on both counts. In the case of DOF, however, there are so many variables involved that lens scales can only be very rough estimates to begin with. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted October 17, 2006 Share #32 Posted October 17, 2006 John, Did they mention any solution to cosmic radiation pixel damage? Best, Mitchell I have some of that cosmic damage myself. !:^) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted October 17, 2006 Share #33 Posted October 17, 2006 apparantly, the atmosphere offers the equivalent cosmic ray protection of 13 ft thick concrete, so if you get too high, beware. Not sure what else would be a significant protective case for air travel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlancasterd Posted October 17, 2006 Share #34 Posted October 17, 2006 John, Did they mention any solution to cosmic radiation pixel damage? Travel by train? :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnll Posted October 17, 2006 Share #35 Posted October 17, 2006 ... I am well awair of how the coding system works, and what information it communicates ... I would be curious to know just how this information is coded. Where can this be found? In my case I am more interested in the EXIF info than in lens corrections, because I nearly always shoot RAW anyway. Also, I use CV lenses that Leica will not be coding, as I understand it. Some have suggested (elsewhere) that the coding identifies the specific (Leica only) lens. If this is the case, I'd be happy to just pretend that my 28mm Color-Skopar (for example) is really a 28mm Elmarit (for example). I'd know how to interpret the EXIF info! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 17, 2006 Share #36 Posted October 17, 2006 The coding is nothing more than a 6 bit binary number which resolves to one of 63 values with one reserved for "no coding". The value identifies the actual lens formulation, so that one 35mm lens will have a different coding from another 35mm lens. My guess is that they will have measured each lens on an optical bench and come up with coefficients which define that lens' vignetting performance with the M8 sensor. Those coefficients will be used for the in-camera correction but the manual is at pains to point out that the raw data is uncorrected which is done in the processing software, so I expect there's corresponding processing in C1. We're pretty certain now that the camera is not estimating working aperture using the front mounted sensor as a reference, but it's still an open question. We do know that the lens type cannot be identified manually, only if it is coded. All in all, there's a view that the coding was backup in case the offset micro-lenses didn't deliver. In the finish, it looks like they have and the question is really how much benefit to the images the coding becomes. So even though I have had some lenses coded, I'm showing uncharacteristic restraint and not having some more coded until I can see the benefits with my own eyes. It might all turn out to have been a huge waste of time and effort, at least as far as image quality is concerned. We'll see. It's interesting that the offset micro-lenses has been a one-size-suits-all solution and does not need to be changed from lens to lens and is therefore not especially sensitive to varying characteristics from Leica lens to Leica lens. There's also the question of the Tri-Elmar. The existing lens adjusts the frames as you change focal length and the camera senses the position of the frame lever to identify the focal length in use. I've seen the bayonet ring of the new T-E and there's no corresponding complexity and I do not see how, if at all, the camera will be able to distinguish between the 16, 18 and 21mm settings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 17, 2006 Share #37 Posted October 17, 2006 About DoF and format size... http://photo.net/learn/optics/dofdigital/ R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnll Posted October 17, 2006 Share #38 Posted October 17, 2006 The coding is nothing more than a 6 bit binary number which resolves to one of 63 values with one reserved for "no coding". ... Yes, no doubt. Perhaps I was not clear enough. My real question is "How would a third-party coder know what code to put on any given lens?" For example, given the direction of the coded spots, which number (for example 000110 where 0=white and 1=black) would correspond to a 28mm f/2.8 lens? And is the coding specific to different models of Leica lens (e.g. ASPH vs pre-ASPH) or does it just identify the focal length and maximum aperture, as in the case of other digital cameras? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 17, 2006 Share #39 Posted October 17, 2006 The code identifies the actual lens formulation, so the code for a pre-ASPH 35mm f2 is different from the ASPH version. There's no correlation between the code value and the lens focal length and aperture, it's just a number which the camera uses to look up the lens characteristics built into the firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnll Posted October 17, 2006 Share #40 Posted October 17, 2006 Thanks, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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