Sean Reid on Street Photography: Meaning?

[Guest stnami]

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.

I realize that cultural attitudes and laws vary across the world, but "invasion of privacy",

John realistically you cannot expect an answer to this that covers an international forum and come up with a consensus of opinion or a so called 'right' way, Someone from place A says yes that's ok and someone from B says no it is not....... on and on it goes

 

 

....... I spell realise as realise not realize

[sean_reid]

Hi John,

 

Popping in the forums is something that I can do easily while RAW files are processing. As I'm prepping files from several shoots these past few days, it's easy to do that. Writing for real takes much more time and concentration.

 

To answer your question, though, the pragmatic issues of photographing people in public places are the primary focus of part two.

 

The distractions of the forum, to tell the truth, have been the recent attacks on me, my site, my articles, my photography, etc. They drain time and energy that I really don't have to spare.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Mitch,

 

Do you have these Bangcock pictures up anywhere where they are larger (preferably 800 pix or more) and against something other than black (so that I can see your edges more clearly). These are sometimes complex pictures and I'd like to see them as large as possible. What size are they to be in the book? If they're to be 8" wide in the book, it would be good to see them as 8" wide on screen, despite the resolution difference. I'd also put them against whatever color will be used for the background pages of the book. In other words, in a virtual approximation, let's see what these are going to look like.

 

You're good with the 28 and you see all the way through the frame (which is rare). I want to be able to see those smaller figures more clearly. Imants is right that they appear as high key on the web. That can create a lot of black negative space which can be problematic. Is the shadow detail in the originals? I'm guessing, so far, that it might be important for some of these so that areas which are now negative space take on slightly different forms. Otherwise, there's possibility that those areas become visual black holes.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest malland]

Sean:

 

Actually, on the flickr site, if you click on the picture it brings up a page with a medum-sized version; then when you click on "ALL SIZES" it brings up another page with a large (864 x 648 pixel) version. Slighly cumbersome — if you wish, I could send you JPGs at the latter size of the ones that you want to look at.

 

You mention that you want to "look at the edges". I see Ben Lifson strikes again! Your reference to his articles in your Street Photography article was really useful. For people following this discussion I'll give the url here:

 

http://www.rawworkflow.com/making_pictures/index.html

 

The above is a series of execellent articles by Ben Lifson on "Making Pictures", which should be of interest anyone who is serious about photography.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

[smokysun]

hi mitch,

 

i'm coming at this from the point of view of a writer. so i'm sorry if i'm not answering your intent. just saying what i see. (and i think an editor would certainly address the issues brought up in this thread.)

 

the problem: i don't see hysteria in these pictures. i don't see people out of control, say as when they had riots in bangkok over the army control and the king had to interfere. also, i don't see angles of photos making it an out of control, mad world as in the movie 'the cabinet of dr. caligari' or the photos of the russian rodchenko. these are forms that would give your theme meaning.

 

what i do see is a lot of women and girls going about their business in a slightly (could be emphasized more in cropping and printing) threatening atmosphere. aids and prostitution are rampant in bangkok and a very definite line drawn between the good and bad women (most sex workers come from the provinces so they can send money home to poor families).

 

frankly, if you want to be poetic, i think you have to present pictures more like these on pbase:Manuel Libres Librodo Jr.'s Photo Galleries at pbase.com a photograper living in bangkok (6 million hits on his galleries).

what i see in your pictures is something much, much darker. maybe it's the sense of women under threat, at the same time often very warm and relating.

 

form and meaning do have to go together. and you presented us a dark vision.

 

i apologize for being a stuck record, but you basically asked us 'what do you see?' now i'll shut up!

 

wayne

[franklinh]

What a wonderful thread!

 

It is difficult to find a balance between speaking "to" an audience, rather than speaking "at" an audience. I find so much of that in art these days. I think the most important thing is to create a context... and within the context, is a story.

 

That is where the art is.

 

We can discuss tools and grammar ad infinitum. It becomes pointless and storyless. That is the antithesis of what the tool was designed for.

 

Paint brushes do not paint paintings. A paint brush is a stick with some hair on it.

Amen! to sfage's post that after some temporary distractions this discussion has become a very high quality thread on photography and Leica Cameras. It is a delight. Discussions like this will keep members coming back for more, and encouraging new ones to register.

 

Franklin

[Guest malland]

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You're good with the 28 and you see all the way through the frame (which is rare). I want to be able to see those smaller figures more clearly. Imants is right that they appear as high key on the web. That can create a lot of black negative space which can be problematic. Is the shadow detail in the originals? I'm guessing, so far, that it might be important for some of these so that areas which are now negative space take on slightly different forms. Otherwise, there's possibility that those areas become visual black holes.

 

Sorry, funny how jet-lag hits you: the first time I read your posting I only saw the first paragraph, to which I responded in the previous posting. Now, for the paragraph quoted above:

 

Thanks. I find that using both the 28 and 21 —and there are bunch with the 21 as well — the key often is to "close up the space" at back of the picture, which keeps the space from looking too "unnatural". It's been interesting using the GR-D because, before, I shot mainly with a 50mm lens on the M6 and had virtually no experience with lenses wider than 35.

 

On the "black negative space": the prints are better than the screen image in that there is some detail in the shadows, particularly when viewd with sufficient light on the print :-) So, the prints don't show black gaping holes. I also find that the full TIFF files show more detail than the JPGs.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

[sean_reid]

Sean:

 

Actually, on the flickr site, if you click on the picture it brings up a page with a medum-sized version; then when you click on "ALL SIZES" it brings up another page with a large (864 x 648 pixel) version. Slighly cumbersome — if you wish, I could send you JPGs at the latter size of the ones that you want to look at.

 

You mention that you want to "look at the edges". I see Ben Lifson strikes again! Your reference to his articles in your Street Photography article was really useful. For people following this discussion I'll give the url here:

 

RAWWorkflow.com - Make better pictures from your pixels™

 

The above is a series of execellent articles by Ben Lifson on "Making Pictures", which should be of interest anyone who is serious about photography.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

 

Hi Mitch,

 

To really look at these seriously, it would be best to see them at the size your planning for them in the book and against the same color background. What are the layout plans?

 

The edges, yes Ben and also Stephen Shore and John Szarkowski ("The Photographers Eye") and then, of course, hundreds of years of paintings before that. The edges are important.

 

Ben's series is probably the best free writing on the web for serious photographers. Most people know that Ben has been my close friend for 20 years and we have discussed and debated art all of that time. Ben is a photographer, writer and critic and his site can be found at benlifson.com

 

Since we've recently been made aware of some members of the forum who are very interested in the "status" of a photographer, I'll add that Ben has received two NEA grants and a Guggenheim as well as having been on the faculty of many prestigious universities including Harvard, Yale, Cal Arts, etc. He's also internationally known as an writer on visual art and curator and has published widely.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sorry, funny how jet-lag hits you: the first time I read your posting I only saw the first paragraph, to which I responded in the previous posting. Now, for the paragraph quoted above:

 

Thanks. I find that using both the 28 and 21 —and there are bunch with the 21 as well — the key often is to "close up the space" at back of the picture, which keeps the space from looking too "unnatural". It's been interesting using the GR-D because, before, I shot mainly with a 50mm lens on the M6 and had virtually no experience with lenses wider than 35.

 

On the "black negative space": the prints are better than the screen image in that there is some detail in the shadows, particularly when viewd with sufficient light on the print :-) So, the prints don't show black gaping holes. I also find that the full TIFF files show more detail than the JPGs.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

 

The 21 is a challenge for sure. Winogrand went to a 24 for awhile but backed off because he didn't feel that he could get it under control. That from one of the very best photographers ever to use a 28.

 

So...let's try to look at the work in a form that is as close as possible to the way you expect it to appear in the book - including the shadow detail so that we can see what those forms really look like.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest malland]

Wayne:

 

i apologize for being a stuck record, but you basically asked us 'what do you see?' now i'll shut up!

 

Not at all: I find what you've written interesting, and look forward to reading more of your views.

 

 

The problem: i don't see hysteria in these pictures. i don't see people out of control, say as when they had riots in bangkok over the army control and the king had to interfere. also, i don't see angles of photos making it an out of control, mad world as in the movie 'the cabinet of dr. caligari' or the photos of the russian rodchenko. these are forms that would give your theme meaning.

 

I think you're right, but the cumulative idea of hysteria (perhaps) starts being felt when you see the whole series within the structure of the four chapters of the book.

 

 

frankly, if you want to be poetic, i think you have to present pictures more like these on pbase:Manuel Libres Librodo Jr.'s Photo Galleries at pbase.com a photograper living in bangkok (6 million hits on his galleries).

what i see in your pictures is something much, much darker. maybe it's the sense of women under threat, at the same time often very warm and relating.

 

Ugh. I really don't like those pictures: they're technically good, but that is in the sense that stock photos are technically good. I find them not to be "true": I'm not into the "mysterious east" and the sexual mystery of oriental woman.

 

 

form and meaning do have to go together. and you presented us a dark vision.

 

Now, I'm glad you wrote that because you've hit the nail on the head! Some time ago I told a friend in Bangkok that I wanted to give a dark vision of the city. This is also related to something else that I have been thinking about: how can you express a tragic sense through photography. This was after I read Walter Kaufman's "Tragedy and Philosophy", followed by the Oresteia.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

[Guest malland]

To really look at these seriously, it would be best to see them at the size your planning for them in the book and against the same color background. What are the layout plans?

 

Sean:

 

So far I've only made a dummy with the first set of 58 pictures with the following sizes:

 

Page size: 21x26cm [8.3x10.2 inches]

Photo size: 22x14.6cm [8.7x5.7 inches] (3:2 format from the 35mm film shots)

 

But I'm not wedded to this format, which could change after I find a publisher. I should hasten to say that I'm very taken with Moriyama Daido and his book Shinjuku 19xx-20xx published and printed in Switzerland on the best glossy paper I've seen (135g/sq. m).

 

This book is 24x34cm (9.4x13.4 inches) and the "landcsape" mode shots are spread across two pages, while the "portrait" mode ones are on single pages. This format, in which the pictures are bled out to the full page is quite good because while the portrait orientation requires no cropping the landscape orientation on the double page spread is 1:1.4, which requires very little cropping for the 35mm format.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

[sean_reid]

Sean:

 

So far I've only made a dummy with the first set of 58 pictures with the following sizes:

 

Page size: 21x26cm [8.3x10.2 inches]

Photo size: 22x14.6cm [8.7x5.7 inches] (3:2 format from the 35mm film shots)

 

But I'm not wedded to this format, which could change after I find a publisher. I should hasten to say that I'm very taken with Moriyama Daido and his book Shinjuku 19xx-20xx published and printed in Switzerland on the best glossy paper I've seen (135g/sq. m).

 

This book is 24x34cm (9.4x13.4 inches) and the "landcsape" mode shots are spread across two pages, while the "portrait" mode ones are on single pages. This format, in which the pictures are bled out to the full page is quite good because while the portrait orientation requires no cropping the landscape orientation on the double page spread is 1:1.4, which requires very little cropping for the 35mm format.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

 

OK, let's look at them at 8.7 x 5.7 on screen with the best file quality you can get us and against white (if that's to be the page background).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest malland]

OK, let's look at them at 8.7 x 5.7 on screen with the best file quality you can get us and against white (if that's to be the page background).

 

Sean:

 

Sorry, do you mean for me to post them on this forum, or to send you JPGs? Also, do you mean the whole 55 Bangkok set? If I'm going to send you jpgs, I can also send the original 58 taken with the M6.

 

—Mitch

[smokysun]

hi mitch,

 

thank you for being so gracious!

 

yes, i think your photos counter-balance the 'exotic' and also the 'sleazy' view of bangkok. you show a lot of quite nice, ordinary women. that's why i think a book called 'the good women of bangkok' would perk a lot of interest. it's something different.

 

that's putting out a book based on the present social realities. in practical terms (knowing a lot about the book business) it would, perhaps, get beyond your friends and fans.

 

i guess what i'm saying is i'd like a book based specifically on bangkok. i feel urban hysteria could be pictured anywhere. what makes this city special to the world? the image of the sex trade.

 

however, i understand the desire to make a more poetic, less social statement. (poetry is where i started and my first love.) so the best of luck with your quest. and you're extremely lucky to get feedback from sean. he'll be completely straight with you in technical matters (he does believe the content is completely up to the photographer whereas i argue people will be interested in your photos 'because' of the content, not the form. see beardsley above.)

 

a great discussion and important. thanks again. the business of making a book is most dear to my heart.

 

wayne

[sean_reid]

Sean:

 

Sorry, do you mean for me to post them on this forum, or to send you JPGs? Also, do you mean the whole 55 Bangkok set? If I'm going to send you jpgs, I can also send the original 58 taken with the M6.

 

—Mitch

 

I'd suggest just putting them up on the web at size and against the intended page color. Photoshop can make the simple web pages. Do you have a place to upload them to?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

hi mitch,

 

thank you for being so gracious!

 

yes, i think your photos counter-balance the 'exotic' and also the 'sleazy' view of bangkok. you show a lot of quite nice, ordinary women. that's why i think a book called 'the good women of bangkok' would perk a lot of interest. it's something different.

 

that's putting out a book based on the present social realities. in practical terms (knowing a lot about the book business) it would, perhaps, get beyond your friends and fans.

 

i guess what i'm saying is i'd like a book based specifically on bangkok. i feel urban hysteria could be pictured anywhere. what makes this city special to the world? the image of the sex trade.

 

however, i understand the desire to make a more poetic, less social statement. (poetry is where i started and my first love.) so the best of luck with your quest. and you're extremely lucky to get feedback from sean. he'll be completely straight with you in technical matters (he does believe the content is completely up to the photographer whereas i argue people will be interested in your photos 'because' of the content, not the form. see beardsley above.)

 

a great discussion and important. thanks again. the business of making a book is most dear to my heart.

 

wayne

 

Hi Wayne,

 

I'll try to be straight about all of it. But I do believe that choice of content is entirely up to the photographer.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest stnami]

Now, I'm glad you wrote that because you've hit the nail on the head! Some time ago I told a friend in Bangkok that I wanted to give a dark vision of the city.

Sometimes I feel that we as photographers spend too much time in those dark places (I am guilty of this too often). It is easier to create a series based on the darker side as we know we can capture our audience without presenting images of the highest calibre, as they like or are accustomed to pain and disorder. We have a heap of great images of war. disease and crime floating around but too few of the positives, People criticise cliches in positive images but accept the cliches that abound the dark side. We are a strange lot us humans.

Some time ago I saw a series of images on prostitution and it presented the brighter side as well as these women enjoyed there work, sure they had bad time, some of these images were also in the mix. Alas it wasn't deemed as important by the public, in a way we as photographers may have something to do with this perception

What I saw of Sean's biker images there seems to be a positive vibrance about them, maybe more of us should head this way.

[sfage]

Some time ago I saw a series of images on prostitution and it presented the brighter side as well as these women enjoyed there work, sure they had bad time, some of these images were also in the mix. Alas it wasn't deemed as important by the public, in a way we as photographers may have something to do with this perception

What I saw of Sean's biker images there seems to be a positive vibrance about them, maybe more of us should head this way.

 

I agree.... and good post.

 

The recognition of "artform as storyteller".

 

 

Charels Dickens is one of the finest composers I have ever seen.

[sean_reid]

Sometimes I feel that we as photographers spend too much time in those dark places (I am guilty of this too often). It is easier to create a series based on the darker side as we know we can capture our audience without presenting images of the highest calibre, as they like or are accustomed to pain and disorder. We have a heap of great images of war. disease and crime floating around but too few of the positives, People criticise cliches in positive images but accept the cliches that abound the dark side. We are a strange lot us humans.

Some time ago I saw a series of images on prostitution and it presented the brighter side as well as these women enjoyed there work, sure they had bad time, some of these images were also in the mix. Alas it wasn't deemed as important by the public, in a way we as photographers may have something to do with this perception

What I saw of Sean's biker images there seems to be a positive vibrance about them, maybe more of us should head this way.

 

Hi Imants,

 

That's an interesting point to think about.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[sean_reid]

 

Charels Dickens is one of the finest composers I have ever seen.

 

Charles Dickens was something else, wasn't he?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean