MP3 Posted October 12, 2006 Share #1 Posted October 12, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Dear After the thread I posted yesterday, I must say today is a sunny day for me. I finally got my hands and eyes on the new gem for 45 mins. The most grateful thing is they allow me to use my own SD card and take the sample pictures with me. The sole import dealer here finally managed to show up the M8 in their preview and I was called up just 7 hrs ago. I must say, after all these anticipation, the M8, as Sean commented in his review, does not disappoint. Simply holding the M8 is a joy. The firmware version is 1.05, likely one step more advance than the Photokina version. I have yet to post-process the pictures from C1, however, the out of the box jpegs give me the following impression. WB & JPEG: (I know all you pros may not be very interested in this area : ) - The auto WB appears to be a bit on the cool side in mixed indoor light. The testing room is a indoor room with mix incand lighting and sunlight from large glass window on one side of the room. - Some shots on the same subject taken with the same lighting and framing shows different color temperature. I suppose this may have something to do with the mixed lightings and M8's build-in WB sensor. - The default edge shapening is rather strong in some high contrast areas. Having said that, I managed to take some very natural color indoor pictures Color Rendition: I understand this is a very specialised topic and there are so many variables, like lens, etc. I found the color rendition and tonality change resemble films rather than common video like digital pictures. ISOs: Clean and worry free quality for the lower 3 levels. Even for the higher 2 levels, in my opinion, is quite usable, though noise is there but very film like. And that is my opinion on jpegs, so you may imagine what you can get from those 10MB raws. All in all, I was not disappointed after our great expectation. With more works on subsequent firmware version. I would say, "Leica, you got a winner on hand... let's move forward to your FF machines" Cheers Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Hi MP3, Take a look here My Impression on M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 12, 2006 Share #2 Posted October 12, 2006 Thank you Matthew, actually your experience with jpegs in that mixed lighting sound fairly normal given the circumstances and also the noise levels. One thing about in camera jpegs if your going to shoot like that is getting all the parameters correct. Some companies are too strong with sharpening and contrast changes and things like that. These files if anything like the DMR really don't need much if any sharpening. For the DMR i use a small base amount in C1 and pretty much done from there. I had 1.02 in my demo and really just ignored the LCD pretty much. Sounds like you shot some raws , and just bring them into C1 and WB off something grey or white that is neautral and you will see better color for sure. Little surprised you where able to use you card and many folks will want you to post images including myself . But many folks will jump to all kinds of conclusion right or wrong and it still don't represent the final production version. Just something you may want to think about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 12, 2006 Share #3 Posted October 12, 2006 Matthew, any chance you might consider uploading one or two of the RAWs so that we can have a play around with them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 12, 2006 Share #4 Posted October 12, 2006 I'm surprised they let you take the card away; personally I think it would be better not to upload images here until we are certain they are coming from a production-level camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 12, 2006 Share #5 Posted October 12, 2006 I'm surprised they let you take the card away; personally I think it would be better not to upload images here until we are certain they are coming from a production-level camera. I take your point but I'd be surprised if there is a significant change in (RAW) image quality from cameras circulating now and images taken with the final retail product (it would be a worry if this was the case). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted October 12, 2006 Share #6 Posted October 12, 2006 Thanks for sharing this interesting information Matthew. Must have been a fantastic experience to actually hold one in your hands! It seems to me that the advice given by Guy and Mark is to be taken very serious. We don't want anyone to draw the wrong conclusions. Although I must say I'm terribly curious of course Cheers, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted October 12, 2006 Share #7 Posted October 12, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) My DMR often changes color balance for no apparent reason. I use the second version of the firmware. As I shoot raw it's not a problem. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 12, 2006 Share #8 Posted October 12, 2006 Thanks for sharing this interesting information Matthew. Must have been a fantastic experience to actually hold one in your hands!It seems to me that the advice given by Guy and Mark is to be taken very serious. We don't want anyone to draw the wrong conclusions. Although I must say I'm terribly curious of course Cheers, Peter I just know how this stuff goes and in the end Matthew will feel embrassed by it or insulted. I have seen the worst of people when it comes to this stuff attack a innocent poster of a image of this sort and that's all I was trying to let Matthew know. It can just flat out can get ugly. If I could only tell you how much heat i got from my DMR vs 1dsMKII comparision it would amaze you how cruel people can be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted October 12, 2006 Share #9 Posted October 12, 2006 MP3 I would just upload the RAW files, if I were you. There is a much smaller chance of those being misinterpreted than JPEGs. Getting something of real value, at this point, would be more beneficial to Leica than speculating about the quality of RAW files based on JPEGs on the camera LCD screen. In leiu of anything from Leica, upload files! Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 12, 2006 Share #10 Posted October 12, 2006 I definitely wouldn't upload these images if I were Matthew but, that's NOT because I'm afraid of people making inappropriate judgement. BTW ... there's no such a thing called NDA, at lease not as a common business practice, in Japan, HK and especially mainland China. People WILL get very upset if you ask them to sign their life away just to show them a toy. I can safely bet that more than 50 persons have played with the M8 Matthew has touched and at least 10 of them have pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 12, 2006 Share #11 Posted October 12, 2006 I had a play with a DMR before it was released but was asked not to upload any images as the camera didn't have the final firmware. As I had agreed to the request I thought it bad manners not to comply ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted October 12, 2006 Share #12 Posted October 12, 2006 I had a play with a DMR before it was released but was asked not to upload any images as the camera didn't have the final firmware. As I had agreed to the request I thought it bad manners not to comply ;-) I have signed dozens of NDA's in my career. They are very common in the hitech manufactioning segment I am in. By the same token , they are really no better or easier to enforce, than one's word. Stunsworth's promise to not upload any images would be a bond that would be as good as any NDA for me. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted October 12, 2006 Share #13 Posted October 12, 2006 I just know how this stuff goes and in the end Matthew will feel embrassed by it or insulted. I have seen the worst of people when it comes to this stuff attack a innocent poster of a image of this sort and that's all I was trying to let Matthew know. I got that. All I was trying to say is that although I am - also - curious, Matthew should be carefull, like you and Mark suggested. Excuse me if there was a misunderstanding. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 12, 2006 Share #14 Posted October 12, 2006 Not at all Peter and thanks . i was just responding why i said that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share #15 Posted October 12, 2006 Dear Guy Thank you for your kind advises. I've just downloaded the C1 LE and manage to open all those DNGs. Woo! The DNGs are just great, more details, richer color tonality, dynamic range, brillance & glow. Dear Folks I know the level of heat or curosities this may arise, just imagine if I were you. At this very moment, I would prefer just sharing my own enthusiast amatuer views, let alone it is technially another lesson for me to upload those 10MBs files. I'm sure you gentlemen at this reowned Leica forum can understand. As a honorable Leicaphile, I love Leica products and ought to respest their policies though it might be a bit conversative sometimes... but it got its virtue... So let me share more in an enthusiast way. Sit back and relax, folks. The Process: I took pictures with a black M8 - firmware ver. 1.0.5 today (the dealer does not certain whether this will be the version to go for 1st shippment), with 50 cron, 50 asph, Noct and 21 asph. During the 45 mins of picture taking, frankly, what I'm interested and focused on is the high ISO performance. I suppose this is one of the part we all concerned most. My 1 GB Ultra II was exhausted. I set the gem to AdobeRGB, DNG+JPEG fine. Half of the pictures taken are at ISO1250 and 2500 at f1 to f2.8, while others at ISO160 - 640. So you know I was pushing the baby to its max horsepower. I've converted those DNGs to JPEGs with C1's default M8 profile settings, no additional curve treaking or noise reduction was applied. Now these are my findings (from the DNGs converted files) with my naked eye: Color - Very natural tonality and change rendition. Dynamic Range - The mixed lightings from daylight to indooe incand light, from highlights to shadows are rendited in a very pleasing and natural way. Noise - Worry free at 640, begin to show up fine film grain like in shadows at 1250, more on orange channel at 2500 but still fine film grain like. With 50 asph fully open at 2-3 feets to portrait subject at 2500, the DNGs still shows hair and skin details in a natural film like way. Frankly, quite a surprise to me from Kodak sensor. Vignetting, DOF & OOF Looks - Kodak definitely contribute to the results here. No significant vignetting with all the lens I used. The Noct shows a bit, but my prediction is the Noct's sales, new or used will climb up as it simply produce some of the best pictures I took today with its slightly greater DOF, great smooth OOF bokeh and signature fingerprint. It give me the greatest Leica-look pictures today. Regarding the issue of DOF, my 50 asph wide open shows less OOF bokeh as compared to its usual look due to the 1.33 effect I suppose. Physically: Grip - Great, though I would prefer the classic vulcanite to shark leather. Shutter sound - The traditional more sexy cloth shutter sound is not there anymore, replaced by a more low-medium pitch metallic sound, still considered a nice sound in my opinion. Viewfinder - Just as clear as M7/MP. In A mode, the shutter speed appears in very bright red. Metering - Largely accurate, center weighted. Of course it would be great to offer a spot mode in backlight condition, but I suppose we can get around it by metering at different lighting area as seen from the frame. Control - In this regard, a future firmware upgrade which can utilize the unused turnwheel and 4-directional keys to alter EV and ISO would surely offer more convenience for real-time shooters. It is the great idea contributed by Sean. I agree wholeheartedly. Overall - Surely rivals current pro-level dslr(s) with its low light performance, great compact glass and body. I feel proud with Leica. Good job, keep going and listening to us, the Leica Lovers. Wish you all enjoy my personal experience with this gem, though remember, it is just 1.0.5, the best is yet to come. Best and Cheers Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 12, 2006 Share #16 Posted October 12, 2006 Thank you Matthew great overall description of your findings. Now i need to go buy some lenses . LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted October 12, 2006 Share #17 Posted October 12, 2006 Dear Guy Thank you for your kind advises. I've just downloaded the C1 LE and manage to open all those DNGs. Woo! The DNGs are just great, more details, richer color tonality, dynamic range, brillance & glow. Dear Folks I know the level of heat or curosities this may arise, just imagine if I were you. At this very moment, I would prefer just sharing my own enthusiast amatuer views, let alone it is technially another lesson for me to upload those 10MBs files. I'm sure you gentlemen at this reowned Leica forum can understand. As a honorable Leicaphile, I love Leica products and ought to respest their policies though it might be bit conversative sometimes... but it got its virtue... So let me share more in an enthusiast way. Sit back and relax, folks. Overall - Surely rivals current pro-level dslr(s) with its low light performance, great compact glass and body. I feel proud with Leica. Good job, keep going and listening to us, the Leica Lovers. Wish you all enjoy my personal experience with this gem, though remember, it is just 1.0.5, the best is yet to come. Best and Cheers Matthew Matthew I appreciate your approach to revealing the results of your testing. Although I would love to look at the RAW file detail, the chances of unwarrented misinterpratation always exist. Your detailed report has hit all the major points . The main unknowns for me were 1) hi ISO performance and 2) vignetting. Your report has been very useful in this regard. Actually the technical specs on the Kodak 100500 sensor closely match your real world experience. All in all, an encouraging report! But I still want to see the RAW files:) Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share #18 Posted October 12, 2006 One point I need to supplement. The above ISO findings are based on the followings: For JPEG: High ISO noise are reduced by in-camera firmware. For DNG: ISO noise from 640 onwards as described above are based on DNG converted files. While all settings of C1 are set as standard, C1's M8 default profile are set to exercise different degrees of luminance and chromatic noise reduction automatically. So, the accurate interpretation should be, the description I stated above regarding high ISO performance is AFTER C1's standard M8 profile noise reduction. C1 definitely did a great successful job here. Original INTACT DNG, in this regards, will show a relatively higher level of noise. Cheers Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share #19 Posted October 12, 2006 Hi Simon The NR in C1 can be turned off. I've tried to generate some files from this NR-NIL setting which should generate noise intact files from DNGs. The high ISO noise resulted from this C1-NR-NIL process is, of course, relatively higher. Having said that, my naked eye told me C1 did a successful job in rendering the high ISO DNG converted film in a natural pleasing way with considerable details among fine film grain like noise. That is my experience from the highest 2 ISO stops. Cheers Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 12, 2006 Share #20 Posted October 12, 2006 Hi Simon ... The NR in C1 can be turned off. ... So I let the post up for "a" second and you spotted it before it vanished ... Honestly I haven't used C1 for almost 2 or 3 years ... never liked its color profile. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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