Quick hands on w/S2

[wildlightphoto]

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To answer the earlier question on manual focus, I've tried manual focus on the S2. Perfectly smooth focusing with great drag and feel. The viewfinder is large, bright, and easy to see sharpness.

 

Good to hear, thanks David!

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[sdai]

I know some people don't want to hear this or don't bother to hear this, but here we go again on the CPU and Maestro:

 

Leica may have some contributions to its peripheral circuitry but the two cores embeded in the Maestro are 100% Fujitsu products.

 

First is the FR-80, which is the RISC controller processor. Second is the FR-V, which is the digital signal processor. Pretty much camera functions are to be driven and controlled by these and it does affect image quality, where does the camera's firmware run? it is in the FR-V.

 

Don't mistake, I'm not saying it's good I'm not saying it's bad ... just to provide some facts. I've no doubt the S2 will be a great camera but my preference still goes to the R10. It will take my R lenses with its per pixel quality on par with the S2, runs faster, generates less noise, consumes less power, be lighter (hopefully), be smaller (hopefully), cost (much) less (hopefully), why not?

[stunsworth]

It will take my R lenses with its per pixel quality on par with the S2, runs faster, generates less noise, consumes less power, be lighter (hopefully), be smaller (hopefully), cost (much) less (hopefully), why not?

 

I hope the R10 does fill all of those criteria. But everything you write is a guess or a hope at this stage is it not? maybe Leica will start to release more information about the R10 in the new year.

[sdai]

I hope the R10 does fill all of those criteria. But everything you write is a guess or a hope at this stage is it not?

 

Yes, you're right, Steve ... but how much do we know about the S2? it doesn't even have a spec. sheet.

[carstenw]

Leica may have some contributions to its peripheral circuitry but the two cores embeded in the Maestro are 100% Fujitsu products.

 

Yes, so? As I previously stated, the CPU does not affect the image. The lenses, sensor and firmware do. The CPU is just glue. One can be exchanged for another with no impact on the image (there might be an impact on the performance, however).

[sdai]

Yes, so? As I previously stated, the CPU does not affect the image. The lenses, sensor and firmware do. The CPU is just glue. One can be exchanged for another with no impact on the image (there might be an impact on the performance, however).

 

Without the CPU, how do you run your firmware? yes, you could buy another one, from whom?

 

I don't believe the firmware is written in Germany either, otherwise, what's PhaseOne's role in the picture? of course ... they could let their programmers work from Germany, then you can say the firmware is written in Germany,

[mjh]

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Without the CPU, how do you run your firmware? yes, you could buy another one, from whom? LOL

We are talking about critical components here, right? Yes, the camera needs a CPU, just as it needs a battery (most likely not manufactured by Leica either), only the choice of CPU has no bearing on image quality, and neither has the choice of battery. With the sensor and the lenses, this is obviously a different matter.

 

Now if you had argued that a more powerful CPU would allow the implementation of more complex algorithms that might have an actual influence on image quality, that would have made some sense … but you didn’t.

[sdai]

We are talking about critical components here, right? Yes, the camera needs a CPU, just as it needs a battery (most likely not manufactured by Leica either), only the choice of CPU has no bearing on image quality, and neither has the choice of battery. With the sensor and the lenses, this is obviously a different matter.

 

Now if you had argued that a more powerful CPU would allow the implementation of more complex algorithms that might have an actual influence on image quality, that would have made some sense … but you didn’t.

 

Yes, I forgot about that one, Michael, and that's very important ... but, if just for sake of an argument, I could add more punch and go far beyond, is the glass of each lens element made in Germany? I doubt it.

 

Please don't mistake, I have nothing against German and Germany ... I'd like to have a S2 but practically, a R10 makes more sense.

[georg]

Phase One is the partner for RAW-software and distribution.

Kodak makes the sensor.

Fujitsu makes the Maestro-processor.

 

Final assemblation (+optical components?) is done in Solms by Leica, most mechanical parts are from Cloeßner and Weller (Leitz-Park), special mechanical and electronic components are manufactured by mostly German suppliers.

The lens elements are machined by Leica in Solms, while the glass is mostly bought from the biggest technical glass-supplier in the world: Schott (part of the Carl Zeiss-foundation) in Mainz. Zeiss most likely also produces main machines for the production of the processor and sensor...

 

The "raw" processor-design is 100%-Fujitsu, while the adaption to the special needs of a digital camera was done by Leica. The basic CCD-architecture is from Kodak while the developement of the "adaption" (microlenses, filters...) was done again by Leica in Solms.

Both components cannot be bought by others (e.g. Hasselblad), only their basic design can be used.

 

I think the S2 is far beyond just "assembled in Germany" which is a good thing, because all the technology with highest standards (mainly machines, materials, know-how in design and production) is there, but no one had the confidence to use it for "consumer-products" in a long time..

 

I think Hasselblad (most people were fired by the new investor) and Phase One (60 employees)? are much too small to develop something like the S2.

[AlanG]

Yesterday, I too played with the S2 and most of the other MF cameras and backs at the show. The S2 felt excellent and as stated has a very bright viewfinder, but so do the other MF cameras. Manual focusing is very easy and smooth as the lenses have a slip clutch so you don't have to do anything to overide the AF. The camera on display did not have all features working so I could not depress the top rear button for focus lock. Shot to shot time seemed reasonable and the image processing and display seemed quick.

 

The weight and size of the lenses didn't bother me so much because I ahve been used to heavier MF cameras. I really cant say the shape of the camera camer together that well in my hand although I could get used to it. The body is sort of triangularly shaped and gets wider at the bottom which feels a little strange to hold.

 

In comparison, the Mamiya $15,000 28 megapixel camera also feels good, and seems to work quite well. So this price is going to be a competitve advantage for Mamiya for sure.

 

My bet is that Sinar is getting out of the MF back business and wil just be reselling Leaf backs. In a different direction and a digression fromt he Leica forum, the Linhof Techno seems to really be the way to go for wide angle MF work and I preffer the Linhof by far over the Sinar Artec. (It will work with more lenses, doesn't require focus mounts on lenses, is much less expensive and has more versatiltiy.) Linhof also showed probably one of the only Rodenstock 23mm lenses in existence.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Thanks Alan nice report. Yes the Mamiya body is pretty nice , exactly what i am shooting today . Glad to see you liked it. Have to take a look at that Linhof. The Sinar Artec is very expensive. BTW that 23mm 7 k OUCH but no center filter so for many that maybe the ticket.

[AlanG]

Thanks Alan nice report. Yes the Mamiya body is pretty nice , exactly what i am shooting today . Glad to see you liked it. Have to take a look at that Linhof. The Sinar Artec is very expensive. BTW that 23mm 7 k OUCH but no center filter so for many that maybe the ticket.

 

Please pardon the departure from Leica...

 

The Artec is $14,000 without a lens or back. That is pretty outrageous in my opinion. I talked to one of the men from Linhof and he said the Techno will be about 3,000 euros. Keep in mind that the Linhof will use just about any view camera lens on a flat board. (Also Rollei HyCam lenses via a remote electronic control.) The Sinar, Cambo, and Alpa require custom lens mount with helicoid focusing collars. (More expensive.) And those cameras can only work with a few lenses. The Linhof has a 250mm bellows draw so it can work with longer lenses. I also spent the evening with a friend who was using the Cambo Wide DS and the Leaf 33 back. I learned quite a bit from him. If the 23 is going to be $7k I really wonder what the Leica 24 and 30 TS will cost.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Does make you wonder on the 30T/S. My Mamiya 28mm is now 5600.00. You get wide your pocket get's a lot less, no question about it. Scary

[khun_k]

Please pardon the departure from Leica...

 

The Artec is $14,000 without a lens or back. That is pretty outrageous in my opinion. I talked to one of the men from Linhof and he said the Techno will be about 3,000 euros. Keep in mind that the Linhof will use just about any view camera lens on a flat board. (Also Rollei HyCam lenses via a remote electronic control.) The Sinar, Cambo, and Alpa require custom lens mount with helicoid focusing collars. (More expensive.) And those cameras can only work with a few lenses. The Linhof has a 250mm bellows draw so it can work with longer lenses. I also spent the evening with a friend who was using the Cambo Wide DS and the Leaf 33 back. I learned quite a bit from him. If the 23 is going to be $7k I really wonder what the Leica 24 and 30 TS will cost.

I though Artec is a lot less, something like 7-8k euros? I have some hands-on experience with Artec and tried it with Sironar HR 28mm/eMotion 75LV and think it is quite a nice platform, for stitch work and for architecture/interior work, and good for small space work, like shooting the interior of a car (OK, if the car cannot be cut-out), may be it is not designed for all purpose use, to me it is a technical platform made a lot of sense, for what it was designed for. The 28mm HR is visibly better than my HCD28 on H3D39 - which is very sharp but close range still exhibited some distortion even with the DAC, something the Mamiya 28mm also suffered and more pronounced, even though the 28mm on the 36X48 sensor is more or less 31mm. Given the Leica optical ability, I have no doubt the S2 and the coming T/S lens will be a good alternative although they cannot replace or even rival the real technical platform. The S2 to me is more likely a universal camera system, quick enough for me and good enough for almost all my works, may be it can be a light weight solution for me to have to use both MFDB + 1Ds MK3.

[AlanG]

I though Artec is a lot less, something like 7-8k euros? I have some hands-on experience with Artec and tried it with Sironar HR 28mm/eMotion 75LV and think it is quite a nice platform, for stitch work and for architecture/interior work, and good for small space work, like shooting the interior of a car (

 

I too thought this price was high. But I asked the Sinar people twice. No doubt it will do a good job. But it looked to me that the Linhof Techno will do the same job and more for less money and is actually more compact when you consider that the Atec has a large sliding back. (Maybe an advantage for it or not.)

 

While we're dropping this kind of money on cameras, don't overlook the panoramic cameras from Seitz. I talked to Mr. Seitz at the show and learned a lot about the products.

Can't afford or justify them either. One of them was $40,000. I think they have a few for less.

 

It used to be that I could easily afford a view camera, lens, a Rollei MF system or just about anything else I saw at the show and felt I needed. Not so easy now. I guess my next step is to find more high end customers...

[khun_k]

I too thought this price was high. But I asked the Sinar people twice. No doubt it will do a good job. But it looked to me that the Linhof Techno will do the same job and more for less money and is actually more compact when you consider that the Atec has a large sliding back. (Maybe an advantage for it or not.)

 

While we're dropping this kind of money on cameras, don't overlook the panoramic cameras from Seitz. I talked to Mr. Seitz at the show and learned a lot about the products.

Can't afford or justify them either. One of them was $40,000. I think they have a few for less.

 

It used to be that I could easily afford a view camera, lens, a Rollei MF system or just about anything else I saw at the show and felt I needed. Not so easy now. I guess my next step is to find more high end customers...

Sure, the Seitz D3 combine with the 617 is a very flexible choice as well, the same scanning back can be fitted to the 617 camera as well as on the VR drive for 360 degree panoramic picture. I briefly played the camera for 1/2 hour few month ago using my Alpa lens mounted on the D3, lovely. Too bad I will have very limited use of it so it does not justify such investment, or I can always mount a DSLR on my VR drive and spend more time on Stitcher software to arrive the same. For a fast 617 digital file it is perhaps the best and efficient way, although using flash will be a problem.

[carstenw]

My bet is that Sinar is getting out of the MF back business and wil just be reselling Leaf backs.

 

Why do you think so? My understanding is that Sinar has less of a presence than Leaf in the States, but more elsewhere? Also, their adapter-based system is far more attractive to many than the fixed (closed) Leaf system. Anyone with two different platforms will be able to share Sinar backs between them.

[mooky]

A lot of very interesting observations and a lot of good points. All of the cameras mentioned are all such different animals: I like the Artec camera as it reminds me of my Hass SWC but more so. The S2 (without having one in my hands yet) reminds me of a 67 Pentax.

 

Obviously, both the Artec and S2 are more 'advanced' than the other two. Each would have their own niche'. I still want to know how these larger format digitals can survive without 'tethering' (power) in extreme conditions. Heck, they're all tempting to me in one way or another. Practically speaking, the high price points for them amount to mild insanity if I can't use them afield. Solar-recharging or not, I just see it as a major head-ache which is a bummer for me.

 

Does anyone really have experience with MF digitals 'far-afield', in extreme conditions where there is no power? Or know of any spec's on the S2 to that end yet?

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[AlanG]

I don't know how many images one can shoot per charge with a Leaf back, but the battery was pretty small and light. You could easily carry a bunch of them or find some kind of high capacity battery that you could make work with it. Let's say a battery could do 200 photos. It is about the size of a roll of 120 film. It clips on to the bottom of the back and you barely notice it's there. Compare the size and weight of the battery to 20 rolls of 120 film or 100 sheets of 4x5 Readiload film. So I don't see any issue with using a bunch of them in the field. But then I've never been away from power or at least a car for too long. So if you are going to spend enough time in the field that the batteries can become depleted on their own, you'll need to find some kind of charging solution.

 

As for Sinar getting out of making digital backs, I have no proof. However I was told this by the senior representative of a German camera company. (It wasn't Leica and I won't say more than this. And I can't verify it.) Sinar is selling the top model Leaf back so that should be an indication of something changing once all of the inventory is sold. Or maybe it will just come down to Sinar making the existing backs for a while but not developing any new ones.

 

As for compatibility of Leaf backs. They are definitely not a closed system and work on many cameras: Follow this link and click on "Camera Compatibility."

 

Leaf Medium Format Digital Cameras Leaf Digital Camera Backs

 

The Mamiya people are not too enthusiastic about their own ZD back but they were very excited by the 28 Megapixel Leaf back.

[EH21]

Thierry H from Sinar has addressed the rumors about getting out of the digital back business on the Luminous-Landscape forum which probably gets the most MFDB traffic. He states that in no way are they doing this, only just co-operating with Leaf on the one back and this makes sense as they share the Hy6/AFi camera. Sinar has introduced a new e65 back based on the Kodak 31mp sensor, so the idea that they are just selling off current inventory doesn't make sense either.