jquimby Posted October 17, 2008 Share #1 Posted October 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Looks like Leica isn't alone in targeting this market. While it does lend credibility that Leica identified an opportunity they are going to have to price it to compete and deliver it sooner rather than later if they want first mover advantage. Actually having a some pricing pressure on the S2 is a great thing for us... See Mamiya press release below New Mamiya DL28 Medium Format digital camera system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Hi jquimby, Take a look here competition is already starting to show up..... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted October 17, 2008 Share #2 Posted October 17, 2008 Looks like Leica isn't alone in targeting this market. While it does lend credibility that Leica identified an opportunity they are going to have to price it to compete and deliver it sooner rather than later if they want first mover advantage. Actually having a some pricing pressure on the S2 is a great thing for us... See Mamiya press release below New Mamiya DL28 Medium Format digital camera system I don't see that this model is significantly different from other Mamiya models. (It has a removable back and uses existing lenses.) So I am not sure what you mean by "identified an opportunity." Besides, Mamiya introduced the integrated ZD some time ago although I guess it hasn't been as successful as they'd like. (It probably could be updated but I think Mamiya sees its market is cameras with removable backs.) What is curious to me is that the back is made by Leaf. So here is what is going on at this point in the MF world - the best I can tell: Mamiya has teamed up with Phase One but sells a Leaf back. Mamiya also makes its own digital backs. Phase one sells re-labeled Mamiya cameras. Leica has a deal with Jenoptik (Sinar) and has teamed up with Phase One Sinar makes digital backs, but is also selling the top line Leaf back. Kodak and Dalsa make all the sensors. Kodak owns Leaf, but Leaf uses Dalsa sensors. Sinar and Leaf sell the same camera system made by F&H. (And Sinar will sell you one with a Leaf back on it!) Hasselblad is going it alone. Is Leaf selling its backs to Mamiya and Sinar at prices they can't resist? This 28 megapixel back is 44mmx33mm (compared to larger ones) so perhaps they need some incentive to sell them. And Mamiya's 22 megapixel 48mmx36mm ZD back is only $6,995. Additionally, Phase One is re-selling the Hartblei 45mm TS for Mamiya at a price that is several times what Hartblei was selling it for. So in some way, Sinar, Leaf, Leica, Phase One, F&H, Mamiya, Kodak, and Dalsa are all interrelated. I am sure that price competition is only beginning. I'll be at the PhotoPlus Expo in NYC next week and will try to get to the bottom of this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 17, 2008 Share #3 Posted October 17, 2008 Looks like Leica isn't alone in targeting this market. While it does lend credibility that Leica identified an opportunity they are going to have to price it to compete and deliver it sooner rather than later if they want first mover advantage. Actually having a some pricing pressure on the S2 is a great thing for us... See Mamiya press release below New Mamiya DL28 Medium Format digital camera system Not really a brand new model, and not directly comparable to the S2 given its use of a removable back and existing lenses.....I agree though that anything that might give Leica something to think about in terms of S2 pricing is welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 17, 2008 Share #4 Posted October 17, 2008 If there was a successor to the Mamiya ZD, it might compete with the S2, but the DL28 is actually more comparable to the H3DII-31. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 17, 2008 Share #5 Posted October 17, 2008 Since you're reading the thread Michael, do you have any more S2 news or info that you are allowed to share? . It's all gone, officially, very quiet in the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 17, 2008 Share #6 Posted October 17, 2008 It is the same body i currently have just labeled Mamiya instead of Phase. Just with a leaf back. Nothing different. It is a 28 mpx sensor from Leaf , that you can buy separately also for any other MF camera it supports. Really nothing new but the price is nice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 17, 2008 Share #7 Posted October 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Worries me (though it's not a camera for me) this market is already crowded and Leica are anything up to a year away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paga Posted October 17, 2008 Share #8 Posted October 17, 2008 I don't see that this model is significantly different from other Mamiya models. (It has a removable back and uses existing lenses.) So I am not sure what you mean by "identified an opportunity." Besides, Mamiya introduced the integrated ZD some time ago although I guess it hasn't been as successful as they'd like. (It probably could be updated but I think Mamiya sees its market is cameras with removable backs.) What is curious to me is that the back is made by Leaf. So here is what is going on at this point in the MF world - the best I can tell: Mamiya has teamed up with Phase One but sells a Leaf back. Mamiya also makes its own digital backs. Phase one sells re-labeled Mamiya cameras. Leica has a deal with Jenoptik (Sinar) and has teamed up with Phase One Sinar makes digital backs, but is also selling the top line Leaf back. Kodak and Dalsa make all the sensors. Kodak owns Leaf, but Leaf uses Dalsa sensors. Sinar and Leaf sell the same camera system made by F&H. (And Sinar will sell you one with a Leaf back on it!) Hasselblad is going it alone. Is Leaf selling its backs to Mamiya and Sinar at prices they can't resist? This 28 megapixel back is 44mmx33mm (compared to larger ones) so perhaps they need some incentive to sell them. And Mamiya's 22 megapixel 48mmx36mm ZD back is only $6,995. Additionally, Phase One is re-selling the Hartblei 45mm TS for Mamiya at a price that is several times what Hartblei was selling it for. So in some way, Sinar, Leaf, Leica, Phase One, F&H, Mamiya, Kodak, and Dalsa are all interrelated. I am sure that price competition is only beginning. I'll be at the PhotoPlus Expo in NYC next week and will try to get to the bottom of this. This is a great (and funny) summary of the situation indeed I will be very curious to read what you find out next week in NY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 17, 2008 Share #9 Posted October 17, 2008 Worries me (though it's not a camera for me) this market is already crowded and Leica are anything up to a year away. The only camera that’s comparable right now is the Mamiya ZD – a medium-format camera in the form factor of a 35 mm DSLR. That’s not exactly what I would call a crowd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinb Posted October 17, 2008 Share #10 Posted October 17, 2008 What's interesting about this is the price.. I don't care about new backs with more mp. The IQ is already so damn good from these backs that I just want to see lower prices (and maybe high ISO, the P30+ is really nice though) and luckily we're seeing that happen from all mf companies, especilly Hasselblad and Phase One.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 17, 2008 Share #11 Posted October 17, 2008 Let's hope the Nikon MX is not real ... otherwise, it's not only a crowd - there will be no room left. If the recession lasts 2-3 years, I suspect that only 1 or maybe 2 medium format companies will survive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 17, 2008 Share #12 Posted October 17, 2008 Someone in another forum made the comment that the distributor of Mamiya in the States also distributes Leaf backs, and that this was probably the only reason for this. Mamiya's official partner is Phase One. This camera is not a new model, just a bundle. It doesn't address the same market as the S2, but rather the same market as every other 645 in the past, like the Bronica ETRs and the Contax 645. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 17, 2008 Share #13 Posted October 17, 2008 ...This camera is not a new model, just a bundle. It doesn't address the same market as the S2, but rather the same market as every other 645 in the past, like the Bronica ETRs and the Contax 645. That is the $64,000 question. The market for the S2 is to be determined. I think as long as Leica gear has to be expensive, it makes sense for them to have a camera with commensurate image quality. (Compared to 35mm format cameras.) I haven't handled an S2 but it is pretty impressive if the camera really is as small as it seems. But my gut feeling is the fixed back and high price will really be an issue for many current and potential MF users. I can report that I have been going to the PhotoPlus Expo in NYC every year since its inception under another name. (More than 25 years.) I have looked at every MF digital camera and back since the very earliest ones. (Scan backs and small sensor 3 shot backs.) The Rollei/Sinar/Leaf Hy6 and Mamiya ZD cameras were first shown there in earliest form several years ago. I even played with a Mamiya ZD and a 24mm lens that was never released. This has to be 3 or 4 years ago. I had no trouble going up to the booths and handling them as much as I wanted. In other words there was never that much interest expressed on the floor. Perhaps Hasselblad seemed to do a little better. Megavison used to make an interesting 48x36 back but they quickly disappeared. The Sinar Bron booth has gotten smaller in recent years. (They barely show view cameras, studio stands, and flashes anymore.) Last year there was a company at the show that demoed a whole range of medium format digital gear. Apparently they actually sell and lease the gear. They were the ones showing the Hy6 and other cameras. It seemed like I was the only one interested and they would have talked to me for hours. The same with Alpa and some others. Meanwhile, you could barely fight your way to the counters at the Nikon and Canon booths to see the D3 and the 1DsIII. Then again, the show and attendees aren't what they used to be and the companies are targeting the masses more now. I'll see how people react to the S2. (Assuming it will be there.) And I agree with the poster who said that if the economy stays bad for a few years, MF manufacturers will have a hard time surviving. I think we are seeing early signs of consolidation now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jquimby Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share #14 Posted October 19, 2008 I guess what determines a "market" it could be camera industry, a la their marketing departments. It could be the well established markets that came together due to adherence or participation in some kind of standard, a la 35mm film. Or it could be how much money you have to spend and you lump in all that can fit in that price range. Are all 30 something MP cameras the same, no, but when you price them there are some features you may be willing to forgo due to cost. My original point was more on the pricing of a similar tool. Yes there are many differences but Mamiya seem to be taking existing products, assembling them and pricing them to compete. Joining a competitive market means that some attention will have to be paid to what it is competing against or what it could compete against. Leica will come to market with the standard marketing material, the Leica look, the best glass, an integrated body, but it can't exclude price from that equation to succeed. The more sub-$15,000 30MP+ cameras in how ever loosely you define this market is a plus for photographers my 2 cents... ~joe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted October 26, 2008 Share #15 Posted October 26, 2008 The only camera that’s comparable right now is the Mamiya ZD – a medium-format camera in the form factor of a 35 mm DSLR. That’s not exactly what I would call a crowd. This is a significant point actually as the ZD does not appear to be too popular amongst pro photographers. I do not know of any integrated digital camera offering a similar spec. to most of the MF digital backs, ie 12 stop dynamic range. Resolution is just not necessarily the only criteria, as the top end 35 mm full frame manufacturers are discovering with their 7/8 stop maximum 14 bit dynamic range offerings at 22 mpx resolution. Perhaps this may well be the reason for Nikon's rumoured entry into the MF arena? Then there is the matter of pixel size. A 22 mpx MF back with much larger pixels at 12 stops dynamic range will often provide a more satisfactory image printing 24" prints than a 37 or 39 mpx with much smaller pixels. But the latter would win hands down if used to produce images for larger print sizes. As always, the camera is just a tool used to do a job. The S2 will be great I am sure as a tool for fashion and portrait photographers for glossy magazine work, but we have to wait to see the full written specification before jumping to any firm conclusion. The 35mm will still reign supreme for sports, wildlife and photojournalism. Top end MF backs and large format will still provide the tool for stock landscape pro's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 26, 2008 Share #16 Posted October 26, 2008 The ZD integrated camera/body never really took off. Noise level stops at ISO 200 than it got ugly. Plus this was some time ago but the first units had some issues and i think folks tended to run from it plus it never really made it to the states in the beginning which hurt it. The ZD back which i had several months ago is nice but very slow on review and again limited to ISO 200 but it does produce very nice images but not the same build quality as other MF backs . I moved up to the Phase because of the speed issue plus i can get nice results at ISO 800 but a lot more money too. The ZD is a very nice entry point if you can deal with the limitations of it . It has a nice sensor from Dalsa which was the Aptus 22 9 micron sensor but after a 20 second exposure you get noise. So i think those limitations did hurt there sales but recently at Photokinia they have updated this back to be faster and such. have yet to see one on the streets yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 26, 2008 Share #17 Posted October 26, 2008 Phase One is sending out emails to promote their 645 AFDIII plus the P30+ bundle at 19900 US. So now we have: H3DII-39: 22K AFD III/P30+: 19.9K DL28: 18K H3DII-31: 18K Based on these, I'd guess the S2 will probably be priced around 20k ... but who knows? it's still 6-months to 1 year away. By the time it really gets into our hands, the landscape of medium format digital cameras/backs may have changed a lot again. Is the Nikon MX rumor real? a 40MP Nikon may cause a lot of casualty. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 26, 2008 Share #18 Posted October 26, 2008 Isn't it $15K ? Yes, it's $15k ... my mistake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 26, 2008 Share #19 Posted October 26, 2008 Phase One is sending out emails to promote their 645 AFDIII plus the P30+ bundle at 19900 US. So now we have: H3DII-39: 22K AFD III/P30+: 19.9K DL28: 18K H3DII-31: 18K Based on these, I'd guess the S2 will probably be priced around 20k ... but who knows? it's still 6-months to 1 year away. By the time it really gets into our hands, the landscape of medium format digital cameras/backs may have changed a lot again. Is the Nikon MX rumor real? a 40MP Nikon may cause a lot of casualty. LOL Certainly the landscape is changing. Let's remember these are posted prices not exactly what deal you can work out with a dealer. The real bottom line is what amount you put on the check. Trust me there are deals to be had too. These folks want to move product and make way for there newer backs coming to market. Like buying a car folks, certainly could too. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 27, 2008 Share #20 Posted October 27, 2008 Certainly a crowded market. Anyone prepared to hazard a guess on likely annual sales in this segment and do you think it will be expanded by the introduction of the S2 are will Leica be fighting for a piece of the same sized cake? Bigger than M8? I thought, 3 fifteens - 15% of the market, 15000 cameras a year, €15000, makes €33m or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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