wildlightphoto Posted October 19, 2008 Share #61 Posted October 19, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Canon has never said that they'll move to 16 bit ... somebody made it up. Simon, it was definitely a Canon press release, which included ballyhooing their 'leap' to the 14-bit CMOS. I'll have to search for the link. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 Hi wildlightphoto, Take a look here Best pseudo-S2?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted October 19, 2008 Share #62 Posted October 19, 2008 We still haven't seen an objective test of the 5D Mk II. I wonder why Canon would change from 12 to 14 bits CMOS and announce a goal of eventually migrating to 16-bit sensors if it doesn't make a difference? I know it may be hard to accept, but I was trying to move this conversation beyond just saying, "more bit depth" is better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted October 19, 2008 Share #63 Posted October 19, 2008 Don't forget bit depth. Leica has shown what kind of dynamic range is possible with the 16-bit CCD in the DMR, vs. the lower bit depth Canon CMOS sensors. Exactly! That is why I'm so excited about the S2 True, but the greater bit depth allows smoother gradation with the same dynamic range, or the same gradation with greater dynamic range, or some combination of the two. Those who have used both the 5D and DMR report empirical results that substantiate the theory, particularly when pulling detail out of the shadow areas. With the DMR there's detail where the 5D's files begin to look like cheesecloth stretched too much. You Nailed it! I need the extended dynamic range for my personal style of lighting. I can't "sculpt" the light unless there are smooth gradations between light and dark areas. And I've gotta have detail in the blacks otherwise it starts looking like "cheesecloth." This is especially true when photographing subjects that have dark hair. Take a stroll through galleries of Canon images and you'll probably notice that dark hair on people often turns to mush :-) Just my experience, others can certainly disagree...I know that having strong opinions doesn't always go over well in forums. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted October 19, 2008 Share #64 Posted October 19, 2008 I don't know what kind of problem you may be having but I don't think it is dynamic range. Skin tones, in anything but the most extreme lighting, have a pretty low dynamic range. And just because one camera captures in 16 bit and another captures in 12 or 14 bit does not mean that the 16 bit captures have a greater dynamic range. 12 bit capture is capable of recording very nice skin tones - and you can only output 8 bits on screen or with most printers. So unless you are doing pretty strong adjustments to exposure, curves or color after capture, higher bit depth won't help you at all. You're totally right. Skintones have a pretty low dynamic range. The problem I have is with my lighting. I have developed a personal style that requires lots of smooth transitions between light and dark areas in order to get a nice 3 dimensional effect. When I'm using cameras with limited dynamic range...or contrasty lenses....then the transitions between light and dark areas become less smooth. The micro-contrast disappears....the guts of the photograph start to dissolve. It drives me bonkers:D I have been able to get relatively pleasing skintones using the Zeiss and Canon mixed with large flat light sources. For example, I've got a large indirect Elinchrom bank and it can do wonders on skin. BUT, then I'm stuck using a single light source that spills light all over the place. Unfortunately, that kind of technique becomes too darn limiting. I suggest you consider looking at your raw processing technique first. If you'd like, send me one of your raw files along with a small jpeg of how you converted it, and I'll see if I can do better. Less than perfect skin is always going to be a problem with any camera that takes sharp photos unless you use very soft lighting, a diffusion filter, make-up, and/or retouching. The way you do raw conversions can make a difference here too. If anything, I'd expect the S2 and any other MF camera to more faithfully record the skin flaws. Why do you think Hassy portrait shooters often used Softar filters? (First you spend thousands on a sharp lens, then even more on an MF back, next you spend a few hundred to blur the image slightly.) If you use a pc, you might want to try this free software: CleanSkinFX If it is too extreme for you, try localized or partial blending of the airbrushed result as a layer over the the original. I think there are other similar programs out there too. You are reading my mind because I've tried everything you said. I even own a Hasselblad Softar 1 filter that I've been using off and on since about 1995. I suppose it just comes down to the style of a photographer. For example, a fashion photographer might enjoy the additional contrast. Often times glamour photographers prefer additional contrast. I know of a fashion shooter in NYC that uses Nikon and Zeiss lenses and his work is EXCELLENT. SO it just depends on the shooter. I have an artsy friend that shoots landscapes/cityscapes with Canon and he's borrowed my Zeiss lenses and achieved great results. I'm not in any way bashing the setup. There are a lot of great things photographers would be well served with Zeiss on Canon/Nikon. I could make a list of 20 things that I love about the setup...but the real deal-breaker for me personally is what I perceive as being too much contrast for my style of lighting especially when it comes to finding pleasing skintones on people. And my personal belief is that not all of the Zeiss lenses are too contrasty...Some of them...(Like the 85-1.4 & 50-1.4) can be very pleasing at wide apertures. But unfortunately, that doesn't do me much good in the studio when I need to shoot at F8 or F11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted October 19, 2008 Share #65 Posted October 19, 2008 The (probable) ten-month wait for S2 is already starting to frustrate....<snip>Apart from Leica I've mainly been a Nikon user, but given the likely wait for the D3x, yet alone the S2, that may have to change if I want a camera in the short to medium term.....decisions, decisions;) Come on Leica, help me out:) . The urge to acquire an S2 reminds me a bit of the housing bubble...people enthusiastically throwing large amounts of money into a murky situation based on something that resembles religious belief. It appears to me that a very modest S2 system with one body will cost at least $30,000 [~$15K for a body; 4 lenses @ ~$4k each.] This is a minimum, for a product produced by a company with not-all-that-impressive credentials in the digital camera arena. If I were really in the market for an S2, and really believed it would be out in March of '09, I'd be planning to purchase it about March of 2010, after a year's shake-out and a good review of the situation then. No way I'd be the first in line; I did that with the M8. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 19, 2008 Share #66 Posted October 19, 2008 Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see a lot of enthusiasm in the S2 ... I checked in at least once every day and this forum seemed to be dead in the past few weeks. There's no way that everybody posting here will buy a S2 ... not me to say the least, I'm here only because there's no R10 forum yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 19, 2008 Share #67 Posted October 19, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...but the real deal-breaker for me personally is what I perceive as being too much contrast for my style of lighting especially when it comes to finding pleasing skintones on people. Regardless of how you design your lighting, there is always some way to add some fill light or use a bounce card to control contrast. But then I haven't seen your photos. I use DXO, and via its "DXO Lighting" it has the ability to add a fill light effect to control the shadows. In my experience this is more powerful and versatile than the shadow recovery adjustments in other converters. It has a lot of control - low, medium, and high settings that are then controlled by a slider. Under "Fine settings" there is control over local and overall contrast of fill effect. Plus there is gamma adjustment and also a slider to vary the radius of the gamma shadow adjustment. In general it can fill in the shadows and keep more "pop." This is great for interior and exterior architecture and I guess landscapes too. But the "pop" may have to be turned down a bit on skin tones. (The DXO Ligthing fine setting allow for this.) You might also try Capture One Pro 4.5. (Perhaps the standard "non-pro" version will work as well - I've only used the pro version.) I've been comparing it to DXO for the past two days and while the shadow control is different and not as adjustable than "DXO Lighting" it may do well wiht skin tones. Capture One seems to me to be a program that is especially well suited to skin tones. I've been working with Capture One for more than 5 years now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted October 19, 2008 Share #68 Posted October 19, 2008 Regardless of how you design your lighting, there is always some way to add some fill light or use a bounce card to control contrast. But then I haven't seen your photos. I totally understand what you're saying...and you're right...that kind of thing works sometimes if there is light to bounce But unfortunately I need more control than that...and I don't get that with the Zeiss canon/nikon type setups. It has limitations and then I don't have creative freedom in the studio. I'm always working around the limitations. I use DXO, and via its "DXO Lighting" it has the ability to add a fill light effect to control the shadows. In my experience this is more powerful and versatile than the shadow recovery adjustments in other converters. It has a lot of control - low, medium, and high settings that are then controlled by a slider. Under "Fine settings" there is control over local and overall contrast of fill effect. Plus there is gamma adjustment and also a slider to vary the radius of the gamma shadow adjustment. In general it can fill in the shadows and keep more "pop." This is great for interior and exterior architecture and I guess landscapes too. But the "pop" may have to be turned down a bit on skin tones. (The DXO Ligthing fine setting allow for this.) You might also try Capture One Pro 4.5. (Perhaps the standard "non-pro" version will work as well - I've only used the pro version.) I've been comparing it to DXO for the past two days and while the shadow control is different and not as adjustable than "DXO Lighting" it may do well wiht skin tones. Capture One seems to me to be a program that is especially well suited to skin tones. I've been working with Capture One for more than 5 years now. all good advice BTW - I checked out your portfolio and it's very good .I especially like the architectural shots... I used to assist for a busy architectural photographer that worked for a lot of mega-resorts. We had a few truckloads full of gear and did the 15 hour days..sometimes even 21 hours....it was a lot of work but I kind of miss shooting architecture because we were always on a different location...It was a lot of fun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 19, 2008 Share #69 Posted October 19, 2008 The urge to acquire an S2 reminds me a bit of the housing bubble...people enthusiastically throwing large amounts of money into a murky situation based on something that resembles religious belief. It appears to me that a very modest S2 system with one body will cost at least $30,000 [~$15K for a body; 4 lenses @ ~$4k each.] This is a minimum, for a product produced by a company with not-all-that-impressive credentials in the digital camera arena. If I were really in the market for an S2, and really believed it would be out in March of '09, I'd be planning to purchase it about March of 2010, after a year's shake-out and a good review of the situation then. No way I'd be the first in line; I did that with the M8. JC I did say "(assuming for the moment that IQ, build, reliability and support will all be there)". and I'd want to see some evidence of that first. I certainly wouldn't buy on blind faith alone;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 23, 2008 Share #70 Posted October 23, 2008 Ok, decided not to wait for a D3x/D4 so took the plunge and bought a 1DsIII. Not MF I know, but a hi-res dslr that's probably the most similar to the S2, in terms of size and configuration, that is available today. By coincidence I was at the Creative/MacLive expo in London today, so took a peak at the Canon stand to view some lenses. Their 24 f/1.4L and 85 f/1.2L primes look very good, but who said only Leica glass was expensive;) . I also visited Ivor at Red Dot in Old Street but that, sadly, was to offload my M8 kit. In the current economic climate I can't justify having two systems at the moment, so with a future S2 or R10 purchase in mind, and a 1DsIII in the meantime, something had to go. A very sad day indeed in that respect, but I'd like to think that I will have a digital M again one day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted October 23, 2008 Share #71 Posted October 23, 2008 How many stops do you think a, say 39 MP Hassy, can handle? And what should the S2 be capable of to compete with other MF camera systems? Virtually all 16 bit pro backs can offer a 12 stop plus dynamic range. The Mamiya ZD is like the new S2 an integrated digital camera and does not offer such a wide dynamic range. I would like to see a full spec. of the S2 as I have yet to read that it will be a 16 bit colour depth camera. I can well remember the hype about the M8 being 16 bit and it isn't and it does not have the DR of the DMR digital back which was designed by Imacon, now Hasselblad. Users of both cameras have confirmed this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted October 24, 2008 Share #72 Posted October 24, 2008 Carsten and Dave, thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I guess we'll have to wait a little longer to know the definitive specs of the S2. I wouldn't be surprised if even Leica does not have all the answers yet. Anyway, in the old days, with film, we had to make what was in front of the camera look natural with 5 stops dynamic range Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 24, 2008 Share #73 Posted October 24, 2008 Dave, the DMR was 16 bits. It is inconceivable that Leica would enter the pro market with anything less. The M8 is a different story, constrained by size, ie. battery life, processor performance, etc. Peter, I chatted with a Leica employee today, and he kept emphasizing how early it is. I saw some results from the camera, and they were stunningly sharp, but still had some artifacts, like colour fringing, which Leica is working on. They have until next summer, which ought to be plenty of time, to iron that out. Given their experience with the DMR and M8, it ought to be just a matter of going through the motion for the new camera. Anyway, very little is cast in stone. The specs of the first four lenses are now fixed, and the shape and basic structure of the S2, but not, for example, the sensor. If Kodak releases a new one within the next weeks, Leica could decide to use it, for example. The specs of other lenses are still subject to debate, including the 100/2.5-100/3.5, as variously reported. It might end up being an f/2 lens, as I had hoped. Anyway, time will add more flesh to the specs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted October 25, 2008 Share #74 Posted October 25, 2008 Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see a lot of enthusiasm in the S2 ... I checked in at least once every day and this forum seemed to be dead in the past few weeks. There's no way that everybody posting here will buy a S2 ... not me to say the least, I'm here only because there's no R10 forum yet. I think you are wrong.. there is a lot of enthusiasm for this product in the pro market where it is intended.. regardless of who is posting..but now that it is announced and still 6 months away I think the guys who will buy the thing are just waiting. maybe you should start a r10 forum and sit on that one .. you might get bored here and overly concerned that it is not worth while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 25, 2008 Share #75 Posted October 25, 2008 I think you are wrong..there is a lot of enthusiasm for this product in the pro market where it is intended.. regardless of who is posting..but now that it is announced and still 6 months away I think the guys who will buy the thing are just waiting. maybe you should start a r10 forum and sit on that one .. you might get bored here and overly concerned that it is not worth while. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, Leica better sell a ton of them to the "pros" whose money will then in return be used to support the development and marketing of the R10. The worst case, the R10 never shows up at all ... so what? I have had enough fun on the forum. Am I losing sleep because of one darned camera? you bet ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 25, 2008 Share #76 Posted October 25, 2008 Simon just not enough info right now i don't think to really talk about. I am sure in January as this builds some steam behind it and leica get's more info out things will change. Obviously the S2 is squarely directed at me and folks that do my type of work. So my POV is just a waiting game. Too much time between now and release to think about it much. The other thing for existing MF shooters is we are all ready with working gear so not a big rush. The folks that are on the fence to jump up are much more anxious for this to get in the streets. Because right now what to jump up to is becoming a big question mark with regards to pricing and the economy is all over the place. This puts pinning down a price on gear in a strange spot. Prices have fallen with several MF folks. The big price discount right now is in the 31mpx sensor that Phase, Sinar and Hassy right now are on the market. A lot of head to head on this sensor alone, than leaf sneaks in with a 65 for a good price (28mpx). The Hassy 39 sensor and Phase 39 sensor have come down also and i believe Sinar also. But Hassy and Phase are coming with bigger sensors so that pushes prices down. Interesting timing right now but the s2 in my mind has a pretty good spot in the market which i see tapping 3 separate buyers. 35mm jumpers, MF laterals and the Leica factor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 25, 2008 Share #77 Posted October 25, 2008 Obviously the S2 is squarely directed at me and folks that do my type of work. So my POV is just a waiting game. I have never doubted that for a second Guy ... but if Leica could build a S2, I don't see any reason why they couldn't do a R10, the innards of both cameras could be almost identical. There are obviously some marketing concerns IMO so Leica is giving its priority to the S2 otherwise with two cameras performing pretty close in the market at the same time, they're just killing each other. I guess if the S2 is a real success, Leica might just kill the R altogether ... heck, I might as well give the S2 a serious look if they go ahead and say the R is dead. Decisions, confusions ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 25, 2008 Share #78 Posted October 25, 2008 It's a good point Simon but also double the risk and money too. Plus we certainly have to look at production space, staffing, enough machines to produce at a good production level plus a even bigger investment risk. I agree it would be nice but things like having 2 big production runs are more tuned to bigger companies like Canon and Nikon. Leica even with the additional staff they added for this project would still fall short with doing both at the same time. This will though maybe help actually get the R10 out faster since they may have a lot of production and staffing setup after they get the S2 going. So in the end the R10 maybe quicker because a lot of things maybe already done for it. Believe me I feel bad for the R users, i know you guy's have been waiting a long time for sure. Honestly I think Leica does too but the S2 maybe there golden ticket to get them really kick started. By all accounts even with the overall of the M8 stuff it was and is a success for them. End of the day no matter what the images are great Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khun_k Posted October 25, 2008 Share #79 Posted October 25, 2008 To me I think the attraction for R is no longer existed, for me, not for everyone else. S2 is in the size/weight range of regular 135 type full frame pro camera, with larger sensor and higher resolution, why go to R again? It is not because S2 will be inexpensive, but because R will not be much less and will be competing with future (near future) offering from the big names in East, and considering a full professional set up of 2-3 bodies (may be 1X pro model, 1 or 2X mid pro model for back-up) and 6-10 lenses, I don't see a good economic sense. It might make sense a R body to use the S lenses as a back up, but with the crop factor the lenses range becomes very limited. I can see S2 works as a main system and a Canon/Nikon system as back up. What I am doing now is to have 2 system, one for highest quality work, invest a top of the line digital back system, and for everyday commercial work, a Canon 1Ds3 system. I have been using Phase back for 5 years now, now with P45+ on Contax and also H3D39 for more than 2 years, and use Canon 1Ds series since its introduction, and a M8 for fast street work - more fun. Yes, there are sometimes the Canon glass left something to be desired but overall they are very good, well justify the money and adequate most of the works. The MFDB works very well with smaller camera system. The S2 is something I think Leica has to do and as a 20 years Leica R/M user, I am very happy that Leica did it. The quality of offering will have a stay for a very long time, like a Leica system to be, rather than putting itself in a segment that Japanese maker introduce multiple models a year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted October 26, 2008 Share #80 Posted October 26, 2008 S2 is in the size/weight range of regular 135 type full frame pro camera, with larger sensor and higher resolution.................. I have never seen the actual weight of the S2 specified. Can you advise the actual weight please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.