D Lux 4 Pricing in US

[John Thawley]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So you may get your wish - providing you don't burst a blood vessel before they arrive.

 

You see, therein lies the rub. The camera I want will account for approximately 5% of my annual shooting time. However, that 5% is my time. I have cameras for work... I want a camera for me.

 

I'm the last guy on this forum that will burst a blood vessel. I work 12 weekends a year and spend the rest by the pool. LOL -

 

Please consider this, though... 2 C lux cameras, 1 D lux camera and 2 Digilux cameras represent (I think) a fair effort on my part to become a Leica customer. While I'll admit I've had fun with them... the fun has been novelty. The D-Lux 3 has probably been my favorite. The romance with the Digilux 3 is quickly becoming short lived. I shot an indoor function last night at 400 ISO, and honestly, the noise is embarrassing. Realizing I couldn have done MUCH better with a Canon G9 (and even more so with a G10) adds to the embarrassment... probably more for Leica than me.

 

So, I hope you're right. Meanwhile, I'm going to play with an Epson R-D1 and Leica lens. Hopefully, it will keep that blood vessel in check. LOL

 

JT

[John Thawley]

John, everyone needs leader lines.

 

Yes, but no CHEAP leader lines. And not poorly disguised leader lines. If you order a hamburger for lunch at Morton's steak house, you can count on it being a dynamite hamburger. They're not running next door to Burger King and wrapping it in Morton's wrapping paper.

 

JT

[rob_x2004]

Hamburgers have nothing to do with cameras.

More than one m8 has been sold on the back of a dlux2

Having panasonic deal up your branding for next to nicks sounds good to me.

[miami91]

Yes, but no CHEAP leader lines. And not poorly disguised leader lines. If you order a hamburger for lunch at Morton's steak house, you can count on it being a dynamite hamburger. They're not running next door to Burger King and wrapping it in Morton's wrapping paper.

 

JT

 

Why do you insist that Leica is trying to pull the wool on its customers? I don't see it this way at all. It's a well-known fact that these cameras are co-developed with Matsushita and assembled in their factories. Anyone who thinks they're buying a traditional made-in-Germany Leica when shopping the lux lineup hasn't done his homework. And what is a leader line if not "cheap"? (at least in comparison to other products).

 

You have an extremely valid point that there's a gap between small sensor compacts and the current M, R, and S lineup. Using yourself as an example, it sounds like you've purchased several of the compacts (and a 4/3), but not purchased an M7, MP, or M8. Would Leica get customers such as yourself if they had a sub-3000.00 USD digital rangefinder or full-frame dSLR? Quite likely. They'd probably also sell additional bodies to those of us that are already invested in the M lineup. So let's hope they move in this direction. Recent comments from management indicate that they are doing so.

 

As for Leica's compacts, I don't think they are poor performers for what they are. They're very decent, well built, stylish cameras with all of the benefits and detriments of small sensor cameras. If you don't think the Leica tweaks to design, the longer warranty, and greater resale value are worthy of the price premium, don't buy them. But most people, it seems, are pretty satisfied. They are usually well received by the photographic media, they sell in large enough quantities to be profitable for Leica, and as has already been pointed out, the secondhand market for them is gangbusters.

 

Jeff.

[prk60091]

this has been said before (in other threads- but bears repeating) when the CL came out years ago people screamed it wasn't a real Leica... nothing really changes.

 

I for one like the cache of whipping out my c-lux and and having people look at it and say - oh that's a leica...i think most of us if we were honest withourselves would say the same....

 

i liked it better when this summer when i was at a art fair and looking at some images with my D2 around my neck and the photographer who was selling his images was oohing and ahhing over my D2 (and he had some great images)

[John Thawley]

Why do you insist that Leica is trying to pull the wool on its customers? I don't see it this way at all. It's a well-known fact that these cameras are co-developed with Matsushita and assembled in their factories. Anyone who thinks they're buying a traditional made-in-Germany Leica when shopping the lux lineup hasn't done his homework. And what is a leader line if not "cheap"? (at least in comparison to other products).

 

You have an extremely valid point that there's a gap between small sensor compacts and the current M, R, and S lineup. Using yourself as an example, it sounds like you've purchased several of the compacts (and a 4/3), but not purchased an M7, MP, or M8. Would Leica get customers such as yourself if they had a sub-3000.00 USD digital rangefinder or full-frame dSLR? Quite likely. They'd probably also sell additional bodies to those of us that are already invested in the M lineup. So let's hope they move in this direction. Recent comments from management indicate that they are doing so.

 

As for Leica's compacts, I don't think they are poor performers for what they are. They're very decent, well built, stylish cameras with all of the benefits and detriments of small sensor cameras. If you don't think the Leica tweaks to design, the longer warranty, and greater resale value are worthy of the price premium, don't buy them. But most people, it seems, are pretty satisfied. They are usually well received by the photographic media, they sell in large enough quantities to be profitable for Leica, and as has already been pointed out, the secondhand market for them is gangbusters.

 

Jeff.

 

I think we agree for the most part. I do enjoy my D-Lux 3.

 

But, my affair with my Digilux 3 is waning. I love the analog controls... but the bulk is getting to me. Shutter lag is inexcusable, and the noise over ISO 200 is pretty sad for a camera of this caliber. When I look at the size, image quality and overall performance, my 40D's (I have three of them) smoke it. If I drop off the grip, (for sake of size) clamp on 24-105 L series lens, it's no contest. So in the end, I have to ask myself if the analog controls are worth the trade off.

 

I realize there are a lot of folks on this board that feel Leica can do no wrong. But here's a niche in the market that Leica could seize and use to leverage their growth. CHEAP doesn't have to enter the discussion or equation, but VALUE does. A camera that's not a computer. A camera that let's me take pictures and keeps the electronics out of my way. They have the lenses. It could work.

 

I'll let you know what I think of the Epson R-D1

 

BTW, I apologize if my passion is being interpreted as anger... that's not the case at all. My Canon's make my living... the camera I'm discussing here is for my enjoyment... maybe that's why I feel so strongly about it. LOL

 

I've always enjoyed the business end of luxury brands and enjoyed watching (some) how the navigate changing markets.

 

JT

[nryn]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Well, I'm sorry, John, I guess some of us disagree. I certainly trust _no_ company absolutely, but I by no means am going to have an anyurism over worrying about whether Leica is damaging their brand by rebadging/packaging Panasonic cameras. And I'm not going to worry about whether people are "stupid" (your term) for buying such merchandise or obsess over some conspiracy theory that Leica's slipping their customers a Mickey.

 

I happen to think that D-lux pricing and offering indicates that Leica has a good idea about who their target market is and what they can get out of them. They're running a business, not a charity. It's their job to provide what they can provide at a price that people are willing to pay. Up to you to decide whether the people who pay it are stupid or not. I have better things to worry about than whether the D-lux 4 is really the son of M8.

 

Frankly, given how pretty much every commodity has its fair share of hyperbolic marketing, I'm surprised Leica is even on your radar. Everything from cereals to airplanes makes claims and the consumer sorts it out for themselves.

[John Thawley]

I have better things to worry about than whether the D-lux 4 is really the son of M8.

 

I did not call anyone stupid... I made reference to treating people as if they are stupid. And you, my friend, are attempting to speak to me as if I am stupid. Trust me, I am not.

 

I buy four or five cameras per year. I give cameras away. I fly twice a month carrying no less than $30K of equipment. I don't need, nor am I asking for charity.

 

You may think you can belittle people.. and you may try all you want... but, I'm curious, since you have better things to worry about, why then, are you participating in the discussion.

[streetshooter]

For me there are a few questions.

The first being...is the D-Lux 4 better than the D-Lux 3.

 

I love the 3...great little camera....my beef is the processing time for raw....and it always does a Jpg with the raw file...I hate that....

 

I also use a G9..good camera but IQ not up to the Leica....

 

So the DL4 has that great new f2 lens, Hot Shoe and 2 Strap thinggys... Reason enough for me to get it....

 

The Panny....LX3 while it is supposed to be the same....I would have to test side by side to see that....I don't really believe they are the same....which ever one processes faster...well, it becomes a no brainer for me.....

 

Money aside....I think the Leica will outperform the LX3.....time will tell....

I'll wait till the Red Dot version hits my dealer.....then check it out....till then, the DL3 does it's job....

 

and besides.....there ain't nuttin' like a Leica........

 

Leica shooter for 45 years.......

[nryn]

Sorry, John, if you think I'm belittling you or anyone. And contrary to your perception, I'm not speaking to you as if you're stupid.

 

But as to the larger question, why am I participating in the discussion... that's a very good question. So I bid this thread adieu.

[J Mitchum]

A product manager at Leica stated at Photokina that there was space for two cameras between the p&s models and the M8. I took that to mean a Digilux 3 replacement and a cheaper M camera. So you may get your wish - providing you don't burst a blood vessel before they arrive.

 

I'm guessing Panasonic is working on a successor to the L1 based on the mFT mount and this will be the basis for the Digilux 4. Maybe. I'm still not clear on whether or not Leica is embracing mFT.

 

I think what most people want to see is (1) a high-end point and shoot, essentially a digital version of the CM and (2) an entry-level rangefinder, essentially a digital version of the CL. These in addition to the Digilux 4 would fill in all the holes left in the Leica lineup. While the Digilux 4 would be a clone of the Panasonic L2 the CM and CL would be unique to Leica though likely manufactured by someone else.

[ewelch]

The D-Lux 4 actually has an entirely different firmware and menu system from the pana. The color rendering has been tweaked and the noise reduction/sharpening algorithms are less aggressive. The D-Lux 4 comes with Capture One v4 sofware ($129) and the RAW files are supported in C1. The Pana's RAW files are not recognized or supported in C1. Of course, the D-Lux 4 comes with a 2 year warranty, and something many people overlook - better resale value. Case in point: we sold certified pre-owned D-Lux 3 cameras on Ebay a few weeks ago. The bidding went higher on these USED cameras than the new prices. How many 2-year old digital cameras do you know that increase in value?!

 

So, while the D-Lux 4 may cost more up front, the overall cost of ownership is less. The value of the longer warrany and included C1 software, plus the other Leica intangibles in styling, accessories, and firmware really help in the value proposition.

 

David

 

True as that might be, I have to ask, why can't they sell it without the C1 software? I'm using CS4 with ACR and it's not an option to use C1.

[miami91]

True as that might be, I have to ask, why can't they sell it without the C1 software? I'm using CS4 with ACR and it's not an option to use C1.

 

They have to bundle *something* to allow for RAW processing. Otherwise someone who didn't already own Photoshop/LR/Aperture would be restricted to only shooting JPG. And even those of us that do own these products would be stuck without RAW capability until Apple and Adobe provide the appropriate updates. So your question, I guess, is why not bundle it with something cheaper? (Panasonic uses Silkypix, I believe). Like it or not, this is where Leica would defend their price premium --- Capture One is a higher end product than Silkypix. I'm sure the fact that Leica has a development and marketing partnership with Phase probably influenced their choice as well.

 

Jeff.

[warnica]

I am a new member.

 

I hope not to get off on the wrong foot, but...

 

Don't we know all of the above about the price? As I look through all of the posts, this has been said many times before. Over a couple of years, it probably costs $0.25/day to own the Leica over the Panasonic.

 

Way too much agonizing, even for the cost conscious.

 

If you want it, get, and drive one or two miles less/day, have one less cigarette/day, etc.,

And move on, with or without your D-lux 4. Do people agonize as much about going or not going to a football game? Or another inch or two on their flatscreen TV?

 

But...Leica could do a much better job of outlining the differences.

 

Then we could move on to talking about photography.

 

Will be getting my D Lux 4 this week.

[stubenhocker]

Just because a product is made in the same factory as a similar, but different brand product, does NOT make it the same!

 

There is tremendous latitude for "fine tuning", differentiating between the products. I find the Farkas' argument compelling and have a D-Lux4 on its way to me for friday delivery.

[albert]

I'm picking mine up at 1:00 P.M., Central Standard Daylight Savings Time, complete with it's gorgeous leather case, on Monday.

 

I have enjoyed the D-Lux 3, and can't wait to start up the D-Lux4.

I'm a complete pushover for beautiful design.

[sfage]

does anyone know if the hand grip will work on the D-lux3?

[rsolomon]

I'm guessing Panasonic is working on a successor to the L1 based on the mFT mount and this will be the basis for the Digilux 4. Maybe. I'm still not clear on whether or not Leica is embracing mFT.

 

I think what most people want to see is (1) a high-end point and shoot, essentially a digital version of the CM and (2) an entry-level rangefinder, essentially a digital version of the CL. These in addition to the Digilux 4 would fill in all the holes left in the Leica lineup. While the Digilux 4 would be a clone of the Panasonic L2 the CM and CL would be unique to Leica though likely manufactured by someone else.

 

 

I think the Digilux 4 could fill the need for both the "digital CM and digital CL"

 

to fill the need of the "CM" leave the kit lens on

to fill the need of a "CL" you have you choice of R lenses (with adapter) , or maybe some new AF R lenses... i agree these wouldn not be M lenses but R lenses are top quality too

[chuck1801]

You guys carping about the price are pretty silly. The price is at least partly dictated by how they are marketed -- Leicas are sold exclusively by independent camera stores and have to include a markup to allow the dealers to make money. Since these dealers provide a higher level of customer service -- often explaining the camera's function to customers -- they cannot stock and sell them without that margin.

 

Pannys are sold in Best Buy and Circuit City and Costco and over the internet. For these places a $500 P&S is hard to sell -- it helps if they can just say its the same as the $850 Leica, which is not really true.

 

The Leica's price is a reasonable business decision. The Leica red dot does have value and the camera looks much better than the Panny. So if you are out taking pictures, which camera would you rather have? Now, what is that worth?

 

I will be buying a D-Lux4 later today at the local dealer and ask him a bunch of questions about it.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[J Mitchum]

I think the Digilux 4 could fill the need for both the "digital CM and digital CL"

 

to fill the need of the "CM" leave the kit lens on

to fill the need of a "CL" you have you choice of R lenses (with adapter) , or maybe some new AF R lenses... i agree these wouldn't not be M lenses but R lenses are top quality too

 

The CM was a small point and shoot camera (made in Germany) with a high quality 40mm lens and a "full frame sensor" so to speak. A digital CM should have substantially better quality than the D-Lux 4 and this means using a large sensor. The closest thing to a digital version so far is the Sigma DP1 but it has some major operational issues hopefully to be worked out with the DP2. Even if Leica makes a Digilux 4 as small as the Digilux 2 it will still be an entirely different camera. It could take the place of the CL though if Leica makes some mFT lenses. The Olympus concept falls between the CM and CL but I don't see Leica teaming up with them and I don't see Panasonic going in that direction. Supposedly there is room for two cameras above the D-Lux 4 and below the M8 but I'm not holding my breath.