nhmitchell Posted September 27, 2008 Share #1 Posted September 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm sure this has been addressed in other threads, but the D-Lux 4 pricing is astounding. Checking BH Photo in NYC, the Panasonic LX-3 is $480. The D-Lux 4 is $850. As a D-Lux 3 user who would like to upgrade, I'm stunned. Seems like I'd be a fool to pay darn near twice as much for the red dot. Does anyone have any insight into what the D-Lux 4 offers above and beyond the LX-3 other than cosmetics, (possibly) a rejiggered jpeg engine, and a better warranty? I want to support Leica, but geez, enough may be enough. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 27, 2008 Posted September 27, 2008 Hi nhmitchell, Take a look here D Lux 4 Pricing in US. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rob_x2004 Posted September 27, 2008 Share #2 Posted September 27, 2008 Why didnt you buy the panasonic instead if the red dot wasnt important? Exactly the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhmitchell Posted September 27, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted September 27, 2008 Rob: Fair question. The difference between the Panasonic and Leica in the D-Lux-3/LX-2 iteration wasn't so dramatic. Marketing (image) got me. And I admit that I am a happy user/owner. The dollars now are far more sobering. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted September 27, 2008 Share #4 Posted September 27, 2008 The D-Lux 4 actually has an entirely different firmware and menu system from the pana. The color rendering has been tweaked and the noise reduction/sharpening algorithms are less aggressive. The D-Lux 4 comes with Capture One v4 sofware ($129) and the RAW files are supported in C1. The Pana's RAW files are not recognized or supported in C1. Of course, the D-Lux 4 comes with a 2 year warranty, and something many people overlook - better resale value. Case in point: we sold certified pre-owned D-Lux 3 cameras on Ebay a few weeks ago. The bidding went higher on these USED cameras than the new prices. How many 2-year old digital cameras do you know that increase in value?! So, while the D-Lux 4 may cost more up front, the overall cost of ownership is less. The value of the longer warrany and included C1 software, plus the other Leica intangibles in styling, accessories, and firmware really help in the value proposition. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted September 27, 2008 Share #5 Posted September 27, 2008 The Pana can be ordered from Amazon for USD 436. I had the D-Lux 3, but this time went with the Pana, since the price difference does not make any sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted September 28, 2008 Share #6 Posted September 28, 2008 The D-Lux 4 actually has an entirely different firmware and menu system from the pana. The color rendering has been tweaked and the noise reduction/sharpening algorithms are less aggressive. Thats interesting. The first two models were the same I gather and those differences attribited to them were almost internet myth propogated by some nut in a press conference who later said sorry when talking about the Panasonic (Lc1?) and the Digilux 2? Where did you get the guff that there is a difference for those who shoot jpg. When you say less agressive I figure since the amount is user dialed in that there is a fair amount of overlap. You are the guy closest to the horses mouth. Its actually interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whertha Posted September 28, 2008 Share #7 Posted September 28, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) The D-Lux 4 actually has an entirely different firmware and menu system from the pana. The color rendering has been tweaked and the noise reduction/sharpening algorithms are less aggressive. The D-Lux 4 comes with Capture One v4 sofware ($129) and the RAW files are supported in C1. The Pana's RAW files are not recognized or supported in C1. David Does the firmware affect RAW capture or is it just for JPG? If I didn't use Aperture then the inclusion of Capture One would be nice. I think I'd prefer to have it unbundled and save the 129$ Regardless, I have been very happy with my D-Lux 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted September 28, 2008 Share #8 Posted September 28, 2008 ps .. What I am really not sure about is the camera opening up at 24mm. The zoom I gather would be stepless so there is a fidget factor. Has the AF been improved at all because these things cant be manual focused (Ok theres a page in the instructions but what you are doing real time is pre focussing, or zone focusing through the messy bundle of joy stick from a display) Found the first generation did AF on the fly ok providing you employed a few tricks and learned how to trust it, but nothing great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted September 28, 2008 Share #9 Posted September 28, 2008 The D-Lux 4 actually has an entirely different firmware and menu system from the pana. The color rendering has been tweaked and the noise reduction/sharpening algorithms are less aggressive. The D-Lux 4 comes with Capture One v4 sofware ($129) and the RAW files are supported in C1. The Pana's RAW files are not recognized or supported in C1. Of course, the D-Lux 4 comes with a 2 year warranty, and something many people overlook - better resale value. Case in point: we sold certified pre-owned D-Lux 3 cameras on Ebay a few weeks ago. The bidding went higher on these USED cameras than the new prices. How many 2-year old digital cameras do you know that increase in value?! So, while the D-Lux 4 may cost more up front, the overall cost of ownership is less. The value of the longer warrany and included C1 software, plus the other Leica intangibles in styling, accessories, and firmware really help in the value proposition. David Honestly, I like my D-lux 3... and I'd like to have a D-Lux 4 - but you, my friend should be selling bridges in Brooklyn. Firmware differences are just that.... differences. Why should one cost more than the other? It has to be developed / written and there are costs involved in both. I don't want or have any need for Capture One. Now you might argue that I need (or users need) Capture One to process their RAW files. Hmmmm... if I'm shooting RAW, that negates the need for the "trick" Firmware. No? And if I'm shooting JPEG, then the trick Firmware negates the need for Capture One. I'd give you the differences in styling... and the additional warranty, but the software argument is nonsense and comes off as bloatware created to plump the goods. I have to tell you, the more I read this forum, the more I want to get rid of all my Leica equipment and never look back. Why? Because I'm starting to see a common thread that indicates Leica's disdain for any poor slob who can't afford an overpriced M8. I'd like to think the product, while expensive, provides value for the dollar. I'm seeing that less and less. BTW, do you have the item numbers for the D-Lux 3s you sold on eBay? JT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted September 28, 2008 Share #10 Posted September 28, 2008 Honestly, I like my D-lux 3... and I'd like to have a D-Lux 4 - but you, my friend should be selling bridges in Brooklyn. Firmware differences are just that.... differences. Why should one cost more than the other? It has to be developed / written and there are costs involved in both. I don't want or have any need for Capture One. Now you might argue that I need (or users need) Capture One to process their RAW files. Hmmmm... if I'm shooting RAW, that negates the need for the "trick" Firmware. No? And if I'm shooting JPEG, then the trick Firmware negates the need for Capture One. I'd give you the differences in styling... and the additional warranty, but the software argument is nonsense and comes off as bloatware created to plump the goods. I have to tell you, the more I read this forum, the more I want to get rid of all my Leica equipment and never look back. Why? Because I'm starting to see a common thread that indicates Leica's disdain for any poor slob who can't afford an overpriced M8. I'd like to think the product, while expensive, provides value for the dollar. I'm seeing that less and less. BTW, do you have the item numbers for the D-Lux 3s you sold on eBay? JT Excellent post, unbeatable logic, congrats. And concerning the warranty period, even if the extremely unlikely happened and the Pana fell apart after one year, one could buy a new one and still not have spent more than with its Leica sibling! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted September 28, 2008 Share #11 Posted September 28, 2008 So, while the D-Lux 4 may cost more up front, the overall cost of ownership is less. The value of the longer warrany and included C1 software, plus the other Leica intangibles in styling, accessories, and firmware really help in the value proposition. David I used to write sentences like that when I was in marketing;) andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted September 28, 2008 Share #12 Posted September 28, 2008 .... and something many people overlook - better resale value. Case in point: we sold certified pre-owned D-Lux 3 cameras on Ebay a few weeks ago. The bidding went higher on these USED cameras than the new prices. How many 2-year old digital cameras do you know that increase in value?! David A quick search of sold Leica D-Lux 3s on eBay revealed the highest price of a SOLD item was a new in box black D-Lux 3 for $750. A couple more just over $600 but with bundled items like larger memory cards and leather cases. For the most part, the resale price is "around" $500. JT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mitchum Posted September 28, 2008 Share #13 Posted September 28, 2008 I'm starting to see a common thread that indicates Leica's disdain for any poor slob who can't afford an overpriced M8. I think what bothers me most is Leica's claim that the D-Lux 4 is not only a "system camera" but that they consider it the "Son of M8". A rebadged Panasonic point and shoot is their alternative to the M8? They must think their customers are stupid. It's a decent enough camera for it's class but adding accessories like a viewfinder [for a zoom lens?] does not make it special. Contrast this to something like the Sigma DP1 or Ricoh GR-D which have a fixed focal length where a viewfinder makes more sense but also a focus confirmation light that can be seen when using said viewfinder. It was designed this way. Not so with the D-Lux 4 where it was an afterthought. They were clearly going for the cheapest way to "compete" with them. As for it being the "Son of M8" that is just ridiculous. Insulting even. I guess we can forget about the possibility of a Digital CM or Digital CL then as Leica has already given us those with the D-Lux 4. I don't think so! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nryn Posted September 28, 2008 Share #14 Posted September 28, 2008 Out of curiosity, where is all this vitriol coming from? If you don't want the D-Lux 4, don't buy it; buy the Panny. Or something else. But my goodness, why treat David or Leica like they're peddling snake oil? Companies have been rebadging other manufactured goods for a long time with a variety of successes and failures. From store-brand groceries to Chevys and Subarus being rebadged "Saab". What Leica's doing is no different. They are trying to leverage their name and style. Fine if it's not for you. It's called a marketplace. Get over it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted September 28, 2008 Share #15 Posted September 28, 2008 A quick search of sold Leica D-Lux 3s on eBay revealed the highest price of a SOLD item was a new in box black D-Lux 3 for $750. A couple more just over $600 but with bundled items like larger memory cards and leather cases. For the most part, the resale price is "around" $500. JT And many of us paid only $600.00 USD for the DL3 new. This is what I paid in early 2007 before the continued slide of the dollar and the related Leica price increases. Any time you can get 80% of your purchase price back on a two year old digital product is nothing short of remarkable, IMO. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted September 28, 2008 Share #16 Posted September 28, 2008 I think what bothers me most is Leica's claim that the D-Lux 4 is not only a "system camera" but that they consider it the "Son of M8". A rebadged Panasonic point and shoot is their alternative to the M8? They must think their customers are stupid. It's a decent enough camera for it's class but adding accessories like a viewfinder [for a zoom lens?] does not make it special. Contrast this to something like the Sigma DP1 or Ricoh GR-D which have a fixed focal length where a viewfinder makes more sense but also a focus confirmation light that can be seen when using said viewfinder. It was designed this way. Not so with the D-Lux 4 where it was an afterthought. They were clearly going for the cheapest way to "compete" with them. As for it being the "Son of M8" that is just ridiculous. Insulting even. I guess we can forget about the possibility of a Digital CM or Digital CL then as Leica has already given us those with the D-Lux 4. I don't think so! I agree --- "son of M8" is taking it a bit far. And hopefully this is not a long-term substitute for a lower cost entry level M. But in fairness, the changes Leica/Panasonic has made to the D-Lux line does point it in the direction of the M. Faster lens, focal length orientation to wide angle, hot shoe to support external viewfinders. Whilst these changes hardly make an M out of it, they certainly are reminiscent of M/rangefinder photography. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haris Posted September 28, 2008 Share #17 Posted September 28, 2008 ...Of course, the D-Lux 4 comes with a 2 year warranty, and something many people overlook - better resale value. Case in point: we sold certified pre-owned D-Lux 3 cameras on Ebay a few weeks ago. The bidding went higher on these USED cameras than the new prices. How many 2-year old digital cameras do you know that increase in value?! David Buyung new camera expecting to sell it as secondhand at higher price is not safe game, and I personally don't understand that path. I mean, when I bought all my cameras, I bought them to use them, and thought only about using them. Reselling wasn't even in deep, hidden, parts of my mind. I still haven't sell any camera I bought or get as gift, and I use them all. Ok, I am lying, my old Zenit was broke apart, so it went in garbage Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted September 29, 2008 Share #18 Posted September 29, 2008 Out of curiosity, where is all this vitriol coming from? If you don't want the D-Lux 4, don't buy it; buy the Panny. Or something else. But my goodness, why treat David or Leica like they're peddling snake oil? Companies have been rebadging other manufactured goods for a long time with a variety of successes and failures. From store-brand groceries to Chevys and Subarus being rebadged "Saab". What Leica's doing is no different. They are trying to leverage their name and style. Fine if it's not for you. It's called a marketplace. Get over it. It's called frustration. It's not about rebadging... it's about treating existing customers and potential customers as if they are stupid. We're not talking Chevy or Subaru. But, if you want to draw a parallel.... let's talk Chevy Corvette. A fabulous sports car by any measure. Add a phenomenal price... and Chevy has an iconic winner in the luxury and performance sports car segment. Could they have done that by throwing it on a passenger car platform... or an Opel platform? NO. The passion for Corvette among Corvette's customer base would revolt... with their buying power. That said... and as great a car as Corvette is, could Ferrari get away with re skinning a Corvette? .... Yikes. Maybe sell it for $100,000... re-map the computer for a different power curve... offer interior and exterior colors unique to Ferrari... and extended warranty... I think not. Ferrari models range from $170,000 - to $750,000 and enjoy phenomenal resale value. Looking at Leica's product line, they don't need $500 or even $2000 cameras. While they're screwing around with a segment of the market that they can't possibly compete with, they could be developing a niche' rangefinder for around $3500. A entry level that would promote the use of Leica's lenses and introduce NEW buyers to the Leica "magic" and start them along the way of becoming a Leica owner and user for life. I suggest to you that all of the "lux" (C, D, or Digi) promote false expectations and damage the company's brand. JT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 29, 2008 Share #19 Posted September 29, 2008 Looking at Leica's product line, they don't need $500 or even $2000 cameras. While they're screwing around with a segment of the market that they can't possibly compete with, There's a segment of the market that doesn't want an M, it wants an automated p&s. That's the segment Leica are addressing with these cameras - which I believe make a useful contribution to the company's bottom line. A product manager at Leica stated at Photokina that there was space for two cameras between the p&s models and the M8. I took that to mean a Digilux 3 replacement and a cheaper M camera. So you may get your wish - providing you don't burst a blood vessel before they arrive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted September 29, 2008 Share #20 Posted September 29, 2008 John, everyone needs leader lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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