H3D-II/39 now $22K

[AlanG]

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Also, just wondering what happens to Hasselblad's software lens compensation in post when a photographer would prefer to use Lightroom or C1 instead of H's Phocus????

 

I am not sure if this correction is done in the camera firmware or in the Phocus software. (I am getting out of my league now.) But I think that the only lens which needs it is the 28mm.

 

I just want to say that I am not a proponent of the Hasselblad or any other MF system. I am simply reporting my observations. I decided against going with MF digital a few years ago, but things may change if the economy ever picks up.

 

Most people who get into MF check it out very thoroughly to see which system and back can work best for them. I have been studying this very carefully for a number of years because even some time ago, I thought I'd have no choice but to buy MF digital gear. (A back to use on a view camera and also on a specialized wide angle camera.) But I found I could get by with the full frame 35mm digital system which was quite a surprise to me.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

It's done in Phocus Alan i am pretty sure, I'm not as familiar with Hassy so it could be firmware also.

The same with my Mamiya 28mm lens is now done in C1 4.5 pro. I get corrections now for CA, Purple fringing, Distortion, Light falloff and such. Actually works great, not sure about the Hassy 28mm per say but i hear a lot of great talk on the correction of it in Phocus.

[sdai]

We've already drilled through this in another thread, Michael confirms that Hassie does all correction out of the camera in Phocus (and previously FlexColor).

 

S2 should be the first (actually, maybe second because there was the Mamiya ZD) larger than 35mm FF DSLR doing in camera correction because it outputs JPEGs directly.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I will make a strong suggestion though if your thinking about getting a S2 . Learn everything you can now on MF . There is a lot to learn and it can be very confusing too, but before you plunk your money down be aware of what is going on out there . I spent a lot of time on this as well as Alan has and you just need to know what is going on in this MF world.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

We've already drilled through this in another thread, Michael confirms that Hassie does all correction out of the camera in Phocus (and previously FlexColor).

 

S2 should be the first (actually, maybe second because there was the Mamiya ZD) larger than 35mm FF DSLR doing in camera correction because it outputs JPEGs directly.

 

The new Sinar e65 will also do in camera jpegs coming to market. Honestly I had the ZD too and can't remember but if it does i had it turned off for sure. LOL

 

I think you are right though Simon, I just ignored it when I had it

[sdai]

For what Alan is doing, 35mm FF holds up pretty well and the proof is in the pudding.

 

The S2 should be in a different league from conventional medium format cameras in terms of handling and processing. It has its UPs and DOWNs when compared to a Hassie, the two biggest downers as far as I can see is the non-removable back and the somewhat limiting sensor physical size.

 

6 micron is already pretty high pixel density, I don't know how many more pixels Leica/Kodak could pack into 30x45mm in its next iterations.

 

If they're serious about medium format, what don't they just adopt a larger sensor format such as 48x48, 60x45?

[mjh]

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A Phase One or Leaf back can also be attached to an Alpa or Cambo or whatever camera. I believe (and I might be wrong here) with Hasselblad's H3DII system that's not possible anymore.

Not only is this still possible, but in fact Hasselblad rarely misses an opportunity for pointing out this fact. Support for using a Hasselblad back on a view camera will even improve in the future.

 

Also, just wondering what happens to Hasselblad's software lens compensation in post when a photographer would prefer to use Lightroom or C1 instead of H's Phocus????

DAC is applied in Phocus, not in-camera, and as of now, it is unavailable in other raw converters. Still, results are generally fine as is, even without DAC. The only case where Hasselblad suggests that DAC should be applied is the distortion correction for the HCD 4/28, as they feel that without correction, the remaining amount of distortion doesn’t meet Hasselblad’s standards in the way the other lenses do (and reducing distortion any further would have required a much bigger lens). Of course, you can correct for distortion using any software, only with Phocus this is reduced to just flicking a switch.

[sdai]

The new Sinar e65 will also do in camera jpegs coming to market. Honestly I had the ZD too and can't remember but if it does i had it turned off for sure. LOL

 

I think you are right though Simon, I just ignored it when I had it

 

For what I do, anything in the market is an overkill, Guy ... I'm using something called CameraBag on my iPhone these days, its "Helga" filter makes me think if a one man business could do magics on a cell phone like that, vignetting correction must be easy as pie to these heavyweights in the market. LOL

[AlanG]

It's done in Phocus Alan i am pretty sure, I'm not as familiar with Hassy so it could be firmware also.

The same with my Mamiya 28mm lens is now done in C1 4.5 pro. I get corrections now for CA, Purple fringing, Distortion, Light falloff and such. Actually works great, not sure about the Hassy 28mm per say but i hear a lot of great talk on the correction of it in Phocus.

 

 

By the way, Guy. Around 4 years ago when the Mamiya ZD was first shown at the PhotoPlus Expo in NY, they had a prototype 24mm lens for it that supposedly would cover the 36x48mm sensor. I handled the camera along with that lens and had a long talk with the head guy from Mamiya's importer who was trying to get the lens and camera introduced. He explained to me how he was stressing with Mamiya the importance of making such a wide lens. But it never came to be and I can't understand why since it seemed like a done deal.

 

Around the same time or a year later, the Schneider 24mm Digitar was introduced, but it doesn't fully cover the 36x48 format. Even with the specialized lenses and cameras, wide angle work, especially with movements, is not as easy as with film or even on 35mm digital. Plus when tilting or shifting, MF runs into the possibility of introducing color shifts that require software compensation via a test shot through a diffuser. (Supposedly more common with Kodak chips than with Dalsa chips.) I bet this will not be an issue with the S2 because their 30mm TS lens is retro-focus. I also don't see why the Hartblei and other Pentacon mount lenses couldn't be adapted to the S2 quite easily. Perhaps other MF lenses as well.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Yes Alan i am a little concerned also about the 30mm T/S with the S2 sensor and micro lenses. For everyone else the P30 plus has the micro lenses and is Kodak and today you really can't use this back on a View camera wide angle or tilt and shift lenses. Reason I went with the p25 plus, no micro lenses. As Alan mentioned it will introduce color shift which is a pain to deal with , you can however use some T/S with longer lenses. One reason i said give us a 120 T/S for product work because we can sneak by without color shift when the lens is longer , not a lot of movement but some. Leica will have to do something with the 30mmT/S lens. i don't know what and maybe this new sensor it is not as much a issue. That part i do not know, maybe Micheal can speak of this but from what we know today it seems like it maybe a issue with that lens. This is a little beyond my bread box but it does concern me because I know the limitations of the P30 plus.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

For what I do, anything in the market is an overkill, Guy ... I'm using something called CameraBag on my iPhone these days, its "Helga" filter makes me think if a one man business could do magics on a cell phone like that, vignetting correction must be easy as pie to these heavyweights in the market. LOL

 

 

Too funny. Most of it is overkill , we are just pigs let's face it. LOL

[stevelap]

.....If they're serious about medium format, what don't they just adopt a larger sensor format such as 48x48, 60x45?

 

I still think that you're slightly missing the point here Simon. I believe that Leica specifically didn't want to compete with Hassy et al in MF, nor with Nikon and Canon in FF 35mm dslr.

Rather, they deliberately chose to position the S2 in between, with some of the advantages of both of those formats, in order to create another niche for themselves.

 

Time will tell whether they can make a success of that gambit and, if they do, how long it will remain a niche:)

[sdai]

Steve, I agree with you that Leica might be right on the bet and I certainly hope they are ... otherwise all else could be ended up in a big question mark.

[stevelap]

Steve, I agree with you that Leica might be right on the bet and I certainly hope they are ... otherwise all else could be ended up in a big question mark.

 

Yes, indeed. If they get it wrong in the current economic climate, well......big question mark...

 

However I'm an optimist and my glass remains half full for the moment:)

[cmatter]

Just wondering, how good are the lenses since they are now exclusively from Fuji?

Heard the rumor Hasselblad's new philosophy is to make up for their shortcomings in post. True?

 

Jesus.. what's wrong with Fuji Lenses? LOL. :-) I nearly went into mourning years ago when the amazing Fujinon LF lenses were suddenly no longer imported into the US.

 

Seriously... the lenses on my H3D are superb, outstanding. I have the kit 80mm, the 28mm wide angle, and the 120mm macro. As good (or better) than any "pure Zeiss" lens I've ever used on any film Hasselblad. Look.. we're living in a global age here now. The days of a small Zeiss shop somewhere in the Alps with 20 old German craftsmen sitting at the benches are long gone. The lenses are Branded Zeiss.. made in Japan. The camera body, grip and viewfinder are engraved with that familiar "Sweden" distinctive type face, and the sensor back is labeled "made in Denmark". These lenses are specifically designed for digital capture. What "shortcomings" are there to be "made up".. ?? really??

While I've never tried the H3D lenses with film, I know others who have.. and they perform superbly there, too... from what I've been told. The H series cameras do have available film backs, BTW.

[cmatter]

CORRECTION:.. The lenses aren't branded "Zeiss".. they're branded

"Hasselblad" (made in Japan..) :-).. Nevertheless......

[haribo]

Jesus.. what's wrong with Fuji Lenses? LOL. :-) I nearly went into mourning years ago when the amazing Fujinon LF lenses were suddenly no longer imported into the US.

 

Seriously... the lenses on my H3D are superb, outstanding. I have the kit 80mm, the 28mm wide angle, and the 120mm macro. As good (or better) than any "pure Zeiss" lens I've ever used on any film Hasselblad. Look.. we're living in a global age here now. The days of a small Zeiss shop somewhere in the Alps with 20 old German craftsmen sitting at the benches are long gone. The lenses are Branded Zeiss.. made in Japan. The camera body, grip and viewfinder are engraved with that familiar "Sweden" distinctive type face, and the sensor back is labeled "made in Denmark". These lenses are specifically designed for digital capture. What "shortcomings" are there to be "made up".. ?? really??

While I've never tried the H3D lenses with film, I know others who have.. and they perform superbly there, too... from what I've been told. The H series cameras do have available film backs, BTW.

 

Thanks for your informed answer to my simple and rather innocent question. I am doing a lot of research currently to prepare a very possible entry into MF.

My question was based on information i found on the world wide web. Which made me believe something were wrong in the State of Denmark (pun intended).

Thanks again. Just wished your tone would have been less condescending. Guess, that comes with ownership.

[mjh]

CORRECTION:.. The lenses aren't branded "Zeiss".. they're branded

"Hasselblad" (made in Japan..) :-).. Nevertheless......

The glass is ground and the lenses are assembled by Fujinon in Japan, with the exception of the aperture and shutter unit that is designed and manufactured by Hasselblad in Gothenburg, Sweden, then shipped to Japan. Lens design is part Hasselblad, part Fujinon, with Hasselblad assuming a greater part of the responsibility with later lens designs such as the HCD 4/28. When Hasselblad lenses were made by Carl Zeiss, Zeiss did everything from lens design to manufacture, including the shutter mechanism. These days, a Hasselblad lens is more of a Hasselblad lens then it ever was.

 

Of course, Leica is in quite a different position, having designed and manufactured their own lenses from day one. Hasselblad used to rely on third parties for lens design and manufacture.

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[khun_k]

I am not sure if this correction is done in the camera firmware or in the Phocus software. (I am getting out of my league now.) But I think that the only lens which needs it is the 28mm.

 

I just want to say that I am not a proponent of the Hasselblad or any other MF system. I am simply reporting my observations. I decided against going with MF digital a few years ago, but things may change if the economy ever picks up.

 

Most people who get into MF check it out very thoroughly to see which system and back can work best for them. I have been studying this very carefully for a number of years because even some time ago, I thought I'd have no choice but to buy MF digital gear. (A back to use on a view camera and also on a specialized wide angle camera.) But I found I could get by with the full frame 35mm digital system which was quite a surprise to me.

I am a H3D39 user so I can confirm this: the DAC is a feature in Phocus, you can activate it or disable it. The fff file is tethered file, and 3fr is saved on CF on remote shooting, they can be converted to DNG file that you can use them on Lightroom or Aperture or other software, just that when you convert to DNG you will lost the DAC, which in most cases the original files are quite good, but for close range wide angle lens, DAC helps a lot, especially the reduction of field curve.

The Phocus software is much better improved from flexcolor, really robust, I sometime shot 1,500 exposures one one tethered folder and it went on fast and without breaking up, very much the same level as the Capture One Pro, which I also use for my P45+. All my lenses are with Hasselblad badge, but I don't think they are any different than the Fuji lenses, but I am not sure if the lens coating is any different. The lenses are all quite sharp, color fringe control is well done, even without DAC but as DAC is available, I always leave it activated. The only thing I don't like 3fr file is that you need to import them to Phocus/Flexcolor to be able to read them, I hope this can be changed in the future or even offered a native DNG on the fly. With Phocus, I can probably say the files from P45+ and H3D39 is close enough that you cannot really judge which is better, and same thing for the files from eMotion 75LV I also use, even it is (only) 33 mp.

Judge from my M8, I believe S2 can easily be comparable to H3D39 or P45+, for such a compact package a nice lens line-up, it is a very promising alternative.

[georg]

Carl Zeiss and Leica are not Hasselblad, Fuji or just one "good" lens-manufacturer. They have over 100 years of experience, Zeiss Oberkochen makes the most precise, complex optical designs on this planet and has the most advanced production site with thousands of highly skilled, long-experienced and well-paid employees. Leica is "only" able to manufacture photo-lenses, but we all know their quality...

These two companies propably made 80% of all optical innovations, reference designs and major breakthroughs in the optical industry - without them, we would have no coating, no computer-based design, no aspheric elements...

And these products are in fact "Made in Germany", Leica buys some glass also from Japan/US/France while Zeiss nearly exclusively relies on Schott (part of their company), also most machines used for manufacturing/assembling/coating lenses and mechanics are in fact "Made in Germany".

 

The only reason why Hasseblad now uses Fuji is because they want to improve their profit for their Hongkong-based owners... Do you know how many highly-skilled and experienced people they fired in Göteborg? They're much smaller than Leica! Maybe they did the right economical choices in the past years with focusing stronger on digital integration than the others, but Hasselblad isn't Hasselblad anymore, everything they do in mechanics and optics can also be done by Mamiya or Pentax, they're no longer unique, which makes me very sad.

 

I've tested two or three lenses from "Hasselblad" and they weren't bad (they're neither fast nor cheap!) but they're not state-of-the-art-designs like the Zeiss TPP (one of the last new lenses for Hasselblad, over 8 years ago!). Look how complex Zeiss-designs are for the film-industry! This has very little to do with Fuji or Zeiss-branded consumer-lenses from Cosina. Imagine what they could have done for the new H-System with completely new designs! Instead they chose the cheapest, easiest way and basically staying on the same level they've reached with Zeiss 30 years ago!

 

Back on-topic:

The S2 will get the newest lens-designs from Leica, with the best technology in construction & manufacturing made, by a highly skilled and experienced workforce.

Wait till you see (some did...) the first 37,5MP pictures with these lenses and you won't talk about "digital apo" ever again, I promise...

 

P.S.

It's an extremely important topic for me as my own job relies on accepting cost and benefits of highest-quality-craftsmenship instead of "designed in" and "made anywhere", quality-management or brand-thinking, so I'm sorry to intervene again and bore most readers who just want to try out the systems and choose the one that fits them best... ;-)