marknorton Posted September 19, 2006 Share #41 Posted September 19, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Guy, I agree, I'm not a great fan of cases either, though I have been surprised how much my R-D1 has suffered over the summer - the paint is wearing off around some of the edges and it's not even a good to look at brassing - grey "zincing" more like. So that half case could be interesting, though the thumb wheel looks difficult with it on. I could also see me taking just the M8 with a (normal) Tri-Elmar in one of those neoprene cases when I didn't want to bother with any sort of camera bag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Hi marknorton, Take a look here Sean Reid's positive/ constructive review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
brucek Posted September 19, 2006 Share #42 Posted September 19, 2006 Mitchell: You're thinking of the SLING, available from Leica Goodies http://www.leicagoodies.com/ . I have one on every one of my rangefinder bodies and love them. From the looks of the M8 it will work great on that camera as well. Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted September 19, 2006 Share #43 Posted September 19, 2006 Thanks Bruce. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #44 Posted September 19, 2006 Seems to me the M8 is almost exactly the same size as a Digilux 2, a little wider and looking at both that and the R-D1, there's noticeably more space to the right of the screen for the ball of your thumb. The D2 has the screen offset as far left as it will go, the R-D1 has the "rewind knob" instead of the thumb wheel and a smaller screen, both making space. Does sound like the grip is going to be pretty much essential which makes me wonder how usable the half case is as an alternative. It won't be necessary for everyone, but may be desirable for those with larger hands. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #45 Posted September 19, 2006 Sorry, I meant P/V ratio. Correction there. Thanks. Hello Albert! Thanks very much for letting it drop at that so that we can stay on topic. Much obliged. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #46 Posted September 19, 2006 Mark I am not a case person per say for camera's but that half case does look pretty darn functional. let's go out on a limb here and just assume this sucker is going to be hard to hold. Hi Guy, Not necessarily. I think people with smaller and or medium-size hands may find it to be just fine as is. It really does depend on the individual. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #47 Posted September 19, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) At this point, for me, most of the questions that can be answered prior to release have been answered. It's hard for me to see why I wouldn't want and love this camera. Now I must buckle down to the hard work of....waiting. (Yuck) Best, Mitchell Or to the hard work of earning the money to buy all this stuff. <G> Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #48 Posted September 19, 2006 Mitchell: You're thinking of the SLING, available from Leica Goodies www.leicagoodies.com . I have one on every one of my rangefinder bodies and love them. From the looks of the M8 it will work great on that camera as well. Bruce I agree. It didn't work well on the R-D1 but should work fine on the M8. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 19, 2006 Share #49 Posted September 19, 2006 Actually, I think that a review of the M8 does well to complement the lightness of the gear involved too. Being a DSLR shooter, I typically bring about 5-7 pounds of gear. In fact, for personal travel, I prefer a M6 or digicam or one DSLR/1-2 lenses setup. Part of it is for security reasons but also I do bring a laptop sometimes so I don't want to be caught with too much gear on the road. The M8 provides an alternative means to professionals who aren't tied down to the heavy weight of Nikon, etc. SLR's. (I do like the exercise but my split shins are suffering over time)... In fact, a professional shooter can outfit himself with both Tri-Elmars and one fast lens and he is set to shoot pretty much any situation. In fact, I think that reviews (Sean is awesome by providing practical and useful in the field) tend to focus too much on the technological advances and fancy MTF/noise/chroma diagrams. Yes, it makes everything sound rather nerdy and kinda fancy but as a working pro in the field, I am going to worry more about whether I miss the shot because I pressed the wrong button. In fact, as much as I enjoy the D70, I have missed shots due to smacking down the wrong button too quickly. It is ironic that I get some beautiful views using hyperfocal shooting than letting the autofocus points at. No computer chip has the ability to read the photographer's mind. Only the hands of quickness can determine how the shot is framed and translated into the apropos media. Again, I reiterate that Sean's review focuses on the positive aspects of the M8. Remember, the M8 isn't a perfect tool as it is the first of its kind. But it is an admirable attempt by an established company to show that an impossible dream thought of in the mid-1990's (actually I remember my close friend Sal DiMarco telling me that the word from Leica was that the digital M wasn't possible due to the wide angle issues) and seeing it become reality. The future of the new Leica began with the DMR delivery. It continues with the M8. The future points that a professional Leica digicam say digital CM will be useful in the field. I would like a fixed focal digital camera for use in venues where large cameras aren't permitted e.g. jazz clubs, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #50 Posted September 19, 2006 Hi Albert, Thanks for your enthusiasm about the review, I appreciate it. It's actually not meant to be a positive or a negative review, just an honest one. I think that some at Leica were a little dissapointed by my comments on the digital controls. On the other hand, I've sent them a concrete set of ideas (to speed access to EV, ISO, etc.) that can be implemented in firmware, although they would require some work. They're considering them. There's no way the firmware for the controls can be changed this close to release but it might be possible to include them in a subsequent firmware release that perhaps could be downloaded and installed via the USB 2 connection. I've just added a quick overview of my firmware suggestions to Leica and a sketch of how they would work to the review. I'll reserve final judgement on the weather sealing issue until I've had the chance to test the camera in snow and rain (if Leica OKs that). I think that it is extremely important that a professional camera (intended for work beyond the studio) be sealed for use in bad weather. Does that also mean lenses with seals? Absolutely, but only photographers who want the all-weather capability would need to buy them. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manolo Posted September 19, 2006 Share #51 Posted September 19, 2006 Sean, I'm wandering if you could explain why a live view is not an option (for macro and special lenses) ; It would seem that along weather-sealed it could make the M8 a grate small package for hikes etc...(one could in a hike reverse an existing lens for example) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #52 Posted September 19, 2006 Sean, I'm wandering if you could explain why a live view is not an option (for macro and special lenses) ; It would seem that along weather-sealed it could make the M8 a grate small package for hikes etc...(one could in a hike reverse an existing lens for example) A live view (via an LCD or electronic finder) requires a sensor that is able to provide a constant video feed (without overheating, etc.) As is the case in most DSLRs, the Leica's sensor was not designed for that functionality. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 19, 2006 Share #53 Posted September 19, 2006 Does worry me that Leica have not been listening to feedback from the people with early access to the camera. This is not a rubber-stamping job, it's meant to be a no holes-barred statement of what's right and what's wrong. Partly, it's down to a certain German reserve; the formality and politeness in Germany is great to experience but when it comes to telling it the way it is, I'm concerned that Leica need a good shake (and, as you may have gathered, that's what I do, even at the risk of getting up people's noses). Take the Epson R-D1, there's a couple of menu options which are plainly ridiculous. Slide show? Print Order? Please, nothing to do with professional use of the camera. Sean makes the very valid point that the protect button is a waste of time and goes on to suggest that this button and two others in the arrow buttons should provide direct access to some of the digital controls. This should not be new for Leica - on the D2, you can specify each of the arrow keys to have direct access to a selected configuration function, effectively giving you 4 extra "hot keys". IMHO, the protect key should be relabelled EV+/- and the four arrow keys should be user configurable to provide direct access to configuration functions, including "protect" for those that want it. Most of this is firmware, but they should be re-labelling the "Protect" key to something more useful. I have never protected an image. I just take care not to delete it. Leica should be involving people, like Sean, me even, at this late stage, to do a drains-up on the camera to get it right. I'd do it for feee. Fancy a trip to Solms, Sean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted September 19, 2006 Share #54 Posted September 19, 2006 Sean, Great idea to test the sample camera in rain and snow! Interested to see what Leica says. Opinion on the forum seems to vary about using R8+ 9s, and DMR in weather. I'd really like to know what the limits are. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 19, 2006 Share #55 Posted September 19, 2006 Is it ironic that a digital version of the Konica RF camera would have been very useful! There are no wasted button on that critter as well. The Epson R-D1 is a semi-pro camera. I have no use for direct printing from it but I guess being Epson they are trying to promote their standards accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted September 19, 2006 Share #56 Posted September 19, 2006 Mark, Completely agree about the Protect Button. A complete waste of space. The one time I used it, images were a pain once in the computer. Wouldn't do what I told them. Hard to undo the protect. Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #57 Posted September 19, 2006 Does worry me that Leica have not been listening to feedback from the people with early access to the camera. This is not a rubber-stamping job, it's meant to be a no holes-barred statement of what's right and what's wrong. Partly, it's down to a certain German reserve; the formality and politeness in Germany is great to experience but when it comes to telling it the way it is, I'm concerned that Leica need a good shake (and, as you may have gathered, that's what I do, even at the risk of getting up people's noses). Take the Epson R-D1, there's a couple of menu options which are plainly ridiculous. Slide show? Print Order? Please, nothing to do with professional use of the camera. Sean makes the very valid point that the protect button is a waste of time and goes on to suggest that this button and two others in the arrow buttons should provide direct access to some of the digital controls. This should not be new for Leica - on the D2, you can specify each of the arrow keys to have direct access to a selected configuration function, effectively giving you 4 extra "hot keys". IMHO, the protect key should be relabelled EV+/- and the four arrow keys should be user configurable to provide direct access to configuration functions, including "protect" for those that want it. Most of this is firmware, but they should be re-labelling the "Protect" key to something more useful. I have never protected an image. I just take care not to delete it. Leica should be involving people, like Sean, me even, at this late stage, to do a drains-up on the camera to get it right. I'd do it for feee. Fancy a trip to Solms, Sean? Hi Mark, I wouldn't say that Leica didn't listen to feedback exactly but rather that the sort of concerns that some of us here have voiced didn't take priority for them. The "protect" button might be useful to some people but I can't think of a professional I know who uses it. My suggestion about a new use for it is, of course, now in the review. It's too late to re-label bodies but a firmware update is indeed possible down the line and Leica has been receptive to the suggestions I made. So they are listening and they do care very much about satisfying their customers with this camera. It also must be said again that most of the camera's design is excellent. Every camera has weak points and a smart manufacturer addresses them to the extent possible. Again, for those who are interested, my new ideas for the firmware are now in the review itself as well as a sketch explaining those further. Leica has that information and may be able to spend some time thinking about it once things settle down a bit for them (after Photokina). Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #58 Posted September 19, 2006 Sean, Great idea to test the sample camera in rain and snow! Interested to see what Leica says. Opinion on the forum seems to vary about using R8+ 9s, and DMR in weather. I'd really like to know what the limits are. Best, Mitchell If I get the OK from Leica (because, after all, a test camera does not belong to me) I'm taking the M8 out in the pouring rain to see what happens. (And if I don't get that permission, I'll keep it nice and dry.) I don't think one can take a camera seriously as a tool for photojournalism if it won't work in challenging weather. I told Leica this two years ago when they asked for my input on the digital M. Leica Ms used to be popular cameras at the Winter Olympics because they kept on working even after the Nikon Fs etc. had frozen up. A Leica M should be a tough camera, not a pretty display item. So, we'll see... Leica did tell me that they'd done testing of the camera in 80% humidity, extreme temperatures, etc. and it did well so maybe it will be fine after all. Personally, I like the kind of camera that can fall in a VT snowbank and not miss a beat. Cameras that have passed that test with me are the 1Ds, E-1, etc. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 19, 2006 Share #59 Posted September 19, 2006 Well, I've been playing with my D2 and setting it up so that the 4 arrow buttons provide direct access to ISO, WB, Picture Size and Quality. There's already a separate EV button. It's true that you have to press the function button first to gain access to the 4 arrow buttons, but that's only because the self timer is activated from them as well which is not the case with the M8. I stand by what I said earler. Change the function of the protect button to EV+/- and allow 4 functions from the SET menu to be accessed directly from the arrow buttons, including "Protect". Otherwise, they run the risk of the D2 being better to use than the M8... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 19, 2006 Share #60 Posted September 19, 2006 Sean, if re-labelling the camera is impossible, they should leave the existing button as "Protect" and assign direct access for the 4 buttons to: ISO, EV+/-, WB and Picture Size or Quality (can't decide which I'd prefer - maybe User Mode) when in "shooting" mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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