kdemas Posted September 18, 2006 Share #21 Posted September 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I took a quick read of Erwins "review" and really found it a bit strange. By the way, I am not "Erwin-Basher" as we've seen occasionally but I do think this review is a bit convoluted. Two of my favorites include: 1. "The display is quite clear and shows fine detail, but is hardly visible in sunlit conditions (all displays are lousy in this respect)." Um, I have had numerous professional level DSLRs and their screens are also a bear in bright sunlight. Note to Erwin: This is typical for the industry right now and frankly not worth singling out Leica for. 2. Erwin goes on to discuss the fact that The M8 will not be a match for the feature sets that top DSLRs offer and that customers "want". The rangeinfer market is, by its very nature, a different type of photography and as such there is not a feature for feature requirement. I certainly do not need my M8 to have the 8FPS rate of a top DSLR that I use for racing as I would never pretend that it's the right tool for that job. Erwin even questions the selection of the DNG RAW encoding as he states that the DNG format is not widely supported (paraphrase). The digital game, by its very nature, is evolving and to question the one attempt at a RAW standard seems hilarious to me. Anyway, my rant is over I did read the :ReidReviews" review and found it to be an excellent overview, without the general difital moaning that Erwin seems to be engaged in. Have a good week all! Kent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 18, 2006 Posted September 18, 2006 Hi kdemas, Take a look here Erwin Puts' M8 Review - Part 1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted September 18, 2006 Share #22 Posted September 18, 2006 Kent--Respectfully, I differ on a couple points you make: I do think this review is a bit convoluted. I don't think his native language is English. I know he does a much better job in English than I would on a technical topic in any of the languages I've studied. "The display is quite clear and shows fine detail, but is hardly visible in sunlit conditions (all displays are lousy in this respect)." Note to Erwin: This is typical for the industry right now and frankly not worth singling out Leica for. That's exactly what he said: "All displays are lousy in this respect." I think you've taken his statement a little differently than I. Erwin goes on to discuss the fact that The M8 will not be a match for the feature sets that top DSLRs offer and that customers "want". The rangeinfer market is, by its very nature, a different type of photography and as such there is not a feature for feature requirement. You're right, but Mr Puts understands this; he has written on the differences between rangefinder and reflex demands and designs many times. In fact, Sean Reid as well raises some objections about accessibility of EV, WB and ISO settings on the M8. Erwin even questions the selection of the DNG RAW encoding as he states that the DNG format is not widely supported (paraphrase). The digital game, by its very nature, is evolving and to question the one attempt at a RAW standard seems hilarious to me. I read his comments differently. I think you and he would agree if you sat down to discuss it: As you say, there is one attempt so far at a standard, and he doesn't question the *attempt* but the fact that so few manufacturers have signed on. Quoting, not paraphrasing: "The choice for DNG looks sensible, but there is no guarantee that this DNG format will survive...." He's right. Today it looks like the right choice, but there is no guarantee. He is one of my favorite writers on Leica and on photography, as is also Sean Reid. Erwin tends to be more direct and much more technical. Sean approaches the matter from the viewpoint of a photographer looking at results. I learn a lot from both, because I try to approach them both without bias, just as I think they approach their reviews without bias. Respectfully, --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 18, 2006 Share #23 Posted September 18, 2006 "The choice for DNG looks sensible, but there is no guarantee that this DNG format will survive...." He's right. Today it looks like the right choice, but there is no guarantee.--HC He is moaning about this too. Because this is right for every format. In the last years, well established camera-makers failed or withdrawn from the market. So every proprietary format is by nature a risk. At least DNG is open, well documented and supported by many software, including those of the leader in this field, Adobe. What was Leica other choices for their Raw format? To invent their own? Would it make the risk of disappearance lower? No, sorry put Puts is really out of water when it comes to digital, testing the wrong things, complaining about the false problems and jumping to invalid conclusions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted September 18, 2006 Share #24 Posted September 18, 2006 hi every body... sorry, i have not read all te comments here, but let me exress my direct impression for puts review... this man is very good - seriously. alot of things i have studied from reading his stuff. my technical abilities are partly from his articles that made me aware of many things i didnt know. about the lenses - talking retrospectivly - i think his reviews are amazing - seriously - te man knows something about lenses. technical stuff and "fingerprints" - almost everything is comfirmed. with time i have also studied how to read his texts... about his pictures - i would recomend hm not to post pictures at all, or study how to do it... sorry, it is far from his technical abilities. just look at his pictures - it is not seroius. and besides - how trusts internet pictures???? interent pictures are cool for websites and posts like on photoforum, to give people some impression about your photo, but it is not the place to post photos with what his talks, or at least should be done carefully. look for example how it is done on alpa website, they really give u some info about the lenses and the backs. still internet - but informative enough for first and initial impression. about m8... this is only first part - nothing wrong about it, nothing exiting in my opinion. the theories of conspiration running here about puts/leica/canon.... i dont mind about it. i read the text and know what i want to take from it. about canon... sorry, what is it, the big flagship canon???? if it is that one, i have to say - the canon is amazing - i saw it from some friends in fashion bussneses - it is really great camera that is capable to come the closest as i know to the digi-backs for medium format. it is not like digi-backs of leaf/imacon/phase/sinar, but for many uses it is just as good, and one cannot see huge gap between the two. so if leica m8 is comparable to that camera - im happy. does leica m8 capable to use the full potential of leica lenses????... dont forget - leica lenses are first of all "CHARACTER". as technical considiration... i think there are better lenses from schneider for digital potography. buy alpa camera, digi back and use schneider lenses (at least in the case of wide angle) and u simply cannot ask more than that, both in terms of sensor performance and in terms of lenses (technically). also dont forget that leica m8 is not a technical camera, even if we want and expect from leica superior technical abilities. it is a photographic tool - "A WAY OF PHOTOGRAPHY". this is why i dont use taht amazing canon - i just dont like small slr camera - i love M cameras (becasue of the way i photograph, and puts talks abouit it alot - it is a mental process first of all - indeed true). so, enough that leica m8 will make that a3 picture with quality u would axpect from leica - i dont mind about that technical comaprisons in depth. and enough that the high iso settings will be usable and can please me as provia 400 and npz800 do. if i want the best in high iso speeds - it is not even canon - look into the LEAF backs for example at its 800iso - this is masterpeice of technology. s, lets put in proportion everything - leica m8, erwins review... and dont forget that m8 should be m camera first of all, and not technical camera Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 18, 2006 Share #25 Posted September 18, 2006 The Canon is the 5D, their 'budget' full frame digital SLR - sells for about £1800 here in the UK, say $3400 US. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted September 18, 2006 Share #26 Posted September 18, 2006 thanks steve... ah... this is the canon 5 u write on your pictures... but how u get the leica lenses on it???? it is not rangefinder as i know. anyway - this camera photos are good too as far as i know, so what i said is valid even without tat flagship caanon (mark2?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 18, 2006 Share #27 Posted September 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Victor, I use my R lenses with an adaptor I bought from Cameraquest in the States. M lenses will have to wait for an M8 :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 18, 2006 Share #28 Posted September 18, 2006 In the DSLR world there is nothing better than the Leica R glass and for canon shooters the bonus is they can use them in stop down mode. this does not mean that some of them need modification to the rear shroud or actualy go in and shave the mirror. i have done both with success but working in stop down mode is not that desirable and a PITA also. I got away from all that and just got a DMR and many have done the same and considering the DMR is arguable the best DSLR out there it was a great choice to make. But Canon users can use Leica, Nikon, Zeiss lense with adapters . I have done is for 4 years and those days are over for me and just as well , did not like working in stop down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 18, 2006 Share #29 Posted September 18, 2006 In the DSLR world there is nothing better than the Leica R glass and for canon shooters the bonus is they can use them in stop down mode. this does not mean that some of them need modification to the rear shroud or actualy go in and shave the mirror. i have done both with success but working in stop down mode is not that desirable and a PITA also. I got away from all that and just got a DMR and many have done the same and considering the DMR is arguable the best DSLR out there it was a great choice to make. But Canon users can use Leica, Nikon, Zeiss lense with adapters . I have done is for 4 years and those days are over for me and just as well , did not like working in stop down. That's the crux of it. Leica R lenses on Canon FF bodies (with properly processed RAW files) create outstanding results but one loses auto-aperture stop down which is a very important basic feature. The R9 screen also works better for MF than the standard screens on the FF Canons (although alternate screens are available). But make no mistake, speaking objectively, Leica and Zeiss lenses on Canon FF can yield exceptional files. Those who are curious as to how the R9/DMR compares to the 1DsMKII might want to look at my review of the former. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 18, 2006 Share #30 Posted September 18, 2006 mistake, speaking objectively, Leica and Zeiss lenses on Canon FF can yield exceptional files. Yes, but Cannon's DSLR processing makes the lack of detail problematic.It's deliberately done because fashion photogs want flawless looking skin. Whereas Leica processing is more towards naturalness and good color rendition. I think that resolutionwise Cannon and Leica are equal but Cannon fails at accuracy at color or naturalness of shot rendition. And RAW processing seems to help a little but not as much as supposed. Cannon lenses aim for overcontrasty pictures and somewhat Leica has fallen a little too much on the trend. But the M8 looks very exciting. I think that fashion photogs will be happier now to have something that more spontaneous and jazzy in the studio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 18, 2006 Share #31 Posted September 18, 2006 Yes, but Cannon's DSLR processing makes the lack of detail problematic.It's deliberately done because fashion photogs want flawless looking skin. Whereas Leica processing is more towards naturalness and good color rendition. I think that resolutionwise Cannon and Leica are equal but Cannon fails at accuracy at color or naturalness of shot rendition. And RAW processing seems to help a little but not as much as supposed. Cannon lenses aim for overcontrasty pictures and somewhat Leica has fallen a little too much on the trend. But the M8 looks very exciting. I think that fashion photogs will be happier now to have something that more spontaneous and jazzy in the studio. Hi Albert, Before you go any further with this argument, please look carefully at the comparison samples in the R9/DMR review (where both the Canon and Leica had a Leica 100/2.8 mounted). Note that both files were processed identically in C1 from RAW . I don't really want to debate this whole Canon thing with you Albert because it takes a lot of time and this is a Leica forum. But some of the comments you make (constantly) about Canon are just not factually correct. Sure, many people resent the 800 lb. Gorilla in any arena (Canon in the case of digital cameras) but let's try to keep things accurate. Best, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 18, 2006 Share #32 Posted September 18, 2006 Erwin's ramblings have not put me off at all. I ordered my second M8 today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted September 19, 2006 Share #33 Posted September 19, 2006 Does anybody know who the author/reviewer is? AjaxNetPhoto.com site news & information " ... but I have seen cartloads of images shot in real life indoor and outdoor situations (see Briish Journal of Photography next week 20/09/06 issue) using a prototype M8. While the vignetting issues experienced by many users of the Epson RD1/RD1s ... were not immediately apparent in the M8 portfolio, I thought the camera's colour palette unimpressive and noise levels in frames shot at an any ISO equivalent above 400 quite high... " Sean, I've gone through your review. Would you shed us some light on his crude comments regarding color and ISO (>400) ? Another question is how is the shutter response/lag compared to an M7, frankly, Puts' comment on shutter behaviour also troubles me? As I'm expecting my new M8 with me on my year-end tour... Thanks. Best Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #34 Posted September 19, 2006 My response will be on the thread Imants started called "Re: Sean Reid's positive/ constructive review". Erwin's comments on the M8, esp those that were published and then removed, are getting far more attention than they deserve. I don't want to participate in threads about that article any more. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 19, 2006 Share #35 Posted September 19, 2006 The M8 has not ISO 400 setting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted September 19, 2006 Share #36 Posted September 19, 2006 Does anybody know who the author/reviewer is? AjaxNetPhoto.com site news & information " ... but I have seen cartloads of images shot in real life indoor and outdoor situations (see Briish Journal of Photography next week 20/09/06 issue) using a prototype M8. While the vignetting issues experienced by many users of the Epson RD1/RD1s ... were not immediately apparent in the M8 portfolio, I thought the camera's colour palette unimpressive and noise levels in frames shot at an any ISO equivalent above 400 quite high... " Yes, that is Jonathan Eastland, a very well respected Leica-using professional of many years standing. He specialises in maritime photography but I believe that he works in other areas. I think he also writes the well known Leica M Handbooks. He is the sort of author who would say things as they are - if the images he saw were noisy and unimpressive (colourwise) then they probably were. Ignoring Puts's infamous image comparison there are very few images out there with which we can guage the performance of the M8. In the new M brochure there are a selection of images from Simon Wheatley which, frankly, do not whet my appetite hugely. It's unwise to draw any conclusions from images like these (PDF resolution, pre-production camera, etc.) but they are a little bit too 'digital' looking for my taste. Having said this, the review on DPReview shows shots of the back of the camera with a review image on it. Whilst it's also more than a bit silly to try and draw conclusions from this 'image within an image' I was struck by how much highlight detail appeared to be retained (it was a shot of a toddler's head). None of this speculation has put me off the M8 (which I have on order). Even if it turns out to be rather more average than I would like it is still a crucially important camera for me - allowing me to use digital (as well as film) with my preferred M system. For me the benchmark is the RD-1 (which I used for some time but eventually decided wasn't up to snuff). If it performs better than that I will be satisfied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted September 19, 2006 Share #37 Posted September 19, 2006 Hi wattsy, thanks for your supplement on J Eastman. Ever heard the British Journal of Photography to be issued tomorrow will have an M8 featured story and a picture portfolio from a pre-production model? See what new light it may bring to the M8 image quality... Best Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 19, 2006 Share #38 Posted September 19, 2006 Let's not get too excited. This is what the web-site says: Here first for Leica In a world exclusive, we showcase Magnum Photos' Simon Wheatley, who has been using Leica's new M-series digital rangefinder to photographer London's underground music scene. Sounds to me more like they will be pictures of him using the Leica than the pictures from the Leica, but we will see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted September 19, 2006 Share #39 Posted September 19, 2006 You can see most of the images at the magnum site. Anyway if Leica deems it appropriate to show off the pictures in its upcomming brochure I dont see how much different the final firmware will be from the preproduction model! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted September 19, 2006 Share #40 Posted September 19, 2006 and his site www.simonwheatley.com.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.